Empowering or Degrading?

midnight rain · 08-04-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ribbons

In this scenario -- prostitution for survival -- no, the clients aren't helping them along. The clients are exploiting them. I agree with Vegangelica's and Paloma's points here that there are men who would choose to help rather take advantage of a woman in such a desperate situation.

Well, they say that people already do that with charities and church fundraisers, etc. Yet prostitution still exists so either it's not having the desired effect of feeding all the people on the streets, or prostitutes aren't as desperate for money as Vegan describes them to be.

My guess, most of them are not trying to survive. They're trying to get enough money to feed their drug addictions. And for that, I don't have much sympathy.

bannister · 08-04-2010, 03:45 PM

Well, I had an ex about a year ago who was a very, very strong believer that prostitution and stripping were fantastic professions to work in. He was also under the delusion that most of the women involved were otherwise well-adjusted, substance-free and just doing it to get through college. It led to more than a few arguments.

In fact, when I was hard up and living in my car (completely different story), he actually encouraged me to do prostitution. His reasoning was that because he thought I enjoyed sex, I would enjoy sex with complete strangers and I would be able to "choose" my customers, so it wouldn't be "that bad". Never mind the fact that I was underage then.

/coolstorysis

Anyways, it was a ****ed up relationship and he's not an example of most men out there at all, but it obviously stuck with me. It made me wonder just how many people out there actually think the sex industry is just something "nice" girls resort to so they can graduate and leave completely unscarred with their ****-tons of money.

Also, I really don't believe it's that empowering... since most of the arguments I've heard about how empowering it is have come from men only.

SATCHMO · 08-04-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bannister

Also, I really don't believe it's that empowering... since most of the arguments I've heard about how empowering it is have come from men only.

Men are, for the most part, idiots when it comes to such things.

There are situations, I'm sure where a woman appears to be empowered by stripping/prostitution/pornography, but I think that in those cases it's a reaction to having been disempowered or victimized through abuse in the past.

Men will use the personal empowerment of women argument as their justification of their patronage of these "industries", but I think it's a safe bet that these are the same men who show little to no respect for women outside of that context.

Seltzer · 08-04-2010, 05:33 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Urban... and I think that the problem here is that the question is a little confusing as 'empowering' isn't necessarily the polar opposite of 'degrading'.

For example, if we take a man and a woman of similar abilities/background/etc. who are in the same economical situation and have rougly similar career prospects, if Person A (pick one of the two) is able to prostitute themselves out and Person B isn't (due to factors such as their appearance and demand for prostitutes of their gender etc.), then A effectively has an extra option (one more than B) for making a living and therefore, has more power than B... I think that is objectively true.

The fact that A's extra 'career option' could be considered to be of a degrading nature (subjective) doesn't invalidate that. So if A does prostitute himself/herself, A is exercising their power to perform acts which are considered by a portion of people to be self-degrading. Regardless of whether you consider Person A offering services as a prostitute to be degrading, it is (or it should be) entirely their choice.

jackhammer · 08-04-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Oh, I don't know about that. Prostitution is a lot older than capitalism and I'd be will to bet it has existed under every single economic system.

Indeed. Prostitution under one form or another is the oldest profession in the world, despite any personal views I have.

VEGANGELICA · 08-04-2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

as for the whole angle about documentaries showing 'strong', 'independent' women, how reflective of the industry do you people honestly think that is? really now. a documentary will focus on what, 2-3 women, ignoring the dozens of others in the background... i wonder, are they all up and coming med students just trying to pay their tuition? or are most of them broken little girls trying to come to terms with the abandonment issues from their youths?

It has been a while since I saw the documentary, mr dave, but I agree with you that it didn't necessarily show the typical experience of women who work in strip clubs. I felt the women were pretty gutsy. I don't know much about stripping beyond what I saw in that one documentary.

I wonder if a culture that allowed women and men to be shirtless in public and lacked societal prohibitions against premarital sex would tend to have fewer women working as strippers or prostitutes. I suspect female stripping and prostitution are more common in societies where women are of less value and are burdened with more social constraints on their sexuality.

By the way, for a good look at what prostitution is like in countries such as in India, the movie Salaam Bombay is excellent: Salaam Bombay! - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's fictional but very realistic, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

Everybody has to earn a living somehow and in the real world not everybody will be able to do it in a way that they would like to.

If you can earn as much in one night for lying on your back that would take you a week to earn by serving in McDonalds or cleaning toilets or collecting rubbish then who am I to judge. I'm not the one that has to live with the consequences or the danger.

Any job can make you feel degraded or empowered... Welcome to the real world.

True, some jobs can make you feel degraded...and maybe sometimes having sex feels like cleaning someone's toilet! Still, hopefully there is a slight difference between janitorial work and opening one's legs for some stinking, horrifying beast...although perhaps prostitution is preferable to working at McDonalds.

I hope janitors and trash collectors don't feel degraded. Ideally, no one would feel degraded doing any job, and the difficult jobs to do (mundane, stinky ones) would get extra pay. You are right, though, that the world isn't perfect and often people are just lucky to get any work at all. I wish such desperation didn't exist.

boo boo · 08-05-2010, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

this doesn't make sense.

you don't get a random girl dancing her clothes off for you for free legally whenever you want, even when you're in a relationship. your significant other isn't just a collection of reactions to your actions. just because you can have sex with your partner doesn't mean you can **** them like a pornstar every time you feel like. it just doesn't work that way (it might, but then you'd be dealing with a wicked pile of crazy just waiting to explode on you).

And these are good reasons why prostitution should be illegal because..............

Quote:

as for the whole angle about documentaries showing 'strong', 'independent' women, how reflective of the industry do you people honestly think that is? really now. a documentary will focus on what, 2-3 women, ignoring the dozens of others in the background... i wonder, are they all up and coming med students just trying to pay their tuition? or are most of them broken little girls trying to come to terms with the abandonment issues from their youths?

I'm not saying strippers are predominately one thing or another, like you do with your mind blowingly gross generalizations.

Quote:

i've actually worked for a company that started doing online porn hosting as a side job halfway through my time there. if that sample of 20 some odd girls was any indication of what kind of personalities end up in that situation i'd say you're lucky to find 1 out of 20 who can actually accomplish much of anything on their own. it's not that they're worthless people, not in the least, they deserve help, BUT they need to want it first, and most, are still waiting for the world to say it's sorry.

I wasn't even talking about porn stars but it's interesting how these stereotypes of being "broken down, self loathing" are only applied to the female porn stars while the male ones like Ron Jeremy are pop culture icons because they're just doing what every guy wants right?

You're probably right in that most porn star chicks are like that but you're only talking from subjective experience and not real statistics or anything. I'm saying it's wrong to apply the stereotype to EVERY woman with such an occupation. Not saying that many or even most of the women don't fit the stereotype.

Quote:

also, i've never EVER seen the kind of psychological control the queen bee exerted on her girls before or since, even on tv.

i honestly think the people trying to paint this behavior as somehow empowering or healthy are lying to themselves so they can feel better about wanting to participate in something they're able to recognize as destructive and counter productive without having to admit it to themselves. for all the 'empowerment' stripping might provide, it is completely and thoroughly overshadowed by the objectification it creates. to try arguing a social benefit to prostitution aside from a 'potential' decrease in STDs is even laughable.

I'm not painting it as empowering or healthy either but I'm not gonna say it can't be ever regardless of the type of person. Which is retarded to believe I think. It can be empowering to those that have no shame or guilt about it or don't find it degrading. I'm not denying that most women probably do find it degrading, because they have been conditioned to belief that sex is totally shameful and repulsive.

Quote:

also male prostitutes don't service female clients. they service other dudes. seriously, how clueless are you?

Oh f*cking please. You don't think ANY women seek out prostitutes? EVER?

YOU'RE ****ING DELUSIONAL!!! GET HELP NOW!!!

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 08-05-2010, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

Oh f*cking please. You don't think ANY women seek out prostitutes? EVER?

YOU'RE ****ING DELUSIONAL!!! GET HELP NOW!!!

Compared to men seeking men, no. A girl could walk into a bar with legs open without paying for sex. No matter how butt ugly.

mr dave · 08-05-2010, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bannister

Well, I had an ex about a year ago who was a very, very strong believer that prostitution and stripping were fantastic professions to work in. He was also under the delusion that most of the women involved were otherwise well-adjusted, substance-free and just doing it to get through college. It led to more than a few arguments.

In fact, when I was hard up and living in my car (completely different story), he actually encouraged me to do prostitution. His reasoning was that because he thought I enjoyed sex, I would enjoy sex with complete strangers and I would be able to "choose" my customers, so it wouldn't be "that bad". Never mind the fact that I was underage then.

/coolstorysis

haven't you seen documentaries on prostitution? they're ALWAYS nice, well adjusted girls getting themselves through school / hard knocks....

@Vegangelica - it's really hard to say how things would go in a society like you described. i remember a few years ago legislation was being passed in Ontario (and possibly a few other provinces) allowing women to go topless in public. hasn't really resulted in a change in attitudes towards genders yet, nor did i ever see fresh boobs getting sun when i lived in the province either. personally, being a pessimist, i think that making it more socially acceptable and tolerated would have an increase in the behavior, though it might be easier to get treatment for those who become destructive (not unlike the way alcohol is handled).

@ BooBoo - STFU and read what Vanilla said, you really are clueless in this discussion.

boo boo · 08-05-2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

Compared to men seeking men, no. A girl could walk into a bar with legs open without paying for sex. No matter how butt ugly.

I know it's much more common for men but to deny that some male prostitutes do service women is goddamn f*cking insane.

Mr. Dave clearly has a mental problem, he makes these crazy generalizations all the time and thinks the whole planet functions exactly how he experiences things personally. He's really f*cking crazy and a danger to other people, he should be locked away.

08-04-2010, 03:45 PM	#22 (permalink)
bannister Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: East Bay, CA Posts: 127	Well, I had an ex about a year ago who was a very, very strong believer that prostitution and stripping were fantastic professions to work in. He was also under the delusion that most of the women involved were otherwise well-adjusted, substance-free and just doing it to get through college. It led to more than a few arguments. In fact, when I was hard up and living in my car (completely different story), he actually encouraged me to do prostitution. His reasoning was that because he thought I enjoyed sex, I would enjoy sex with complete strangers and I would be able to "choose" my customers, so it wouldn't be "that bad". Never mind the fact that I was underage then. /coolstorysis Anyways, it was a **ed up relationship and he's not an example of most men out there at all, but it obviously stuck with me. It made me wonder just how many people out there actually think the sex industry is just something "nice" girls resort to so they can graduate and leave completely unscarred with their **-tons of money. Also, I really don't believe it's that empowering... since most of the arguments I've heard about how empowering it is have come from men only. __________________ You're not punk, and I'm telling everyone. ____ last.fm ____ "Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. But, set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

08-04-2010, 05:33 PM	#24 (permalink)
Seltzer Fish in the percolator! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Hobbit Land NZ Posts: 2,870	I'm inclined to agree with Urban... and I think that the problem here is that the question is a little confusing as 'empowering' isn't necessarily the polar opposite of 'degrading'. For example, if we take a man and a woman of similar abilities/background/etc. who are in the same economical situation and have rougly similar career prospects, if Person A (pick one of the two) is able to prostitute themselves out and Person B isn't (due to factors such as their appearance and demand for prostitutes of their gender etc.), then A effectively has an extra option (one more than B) for making a living and therefore, has more power than B... I think that is objectively true. The fact that A's extra 'career option' could be considered to be of a degrading nature (subjective) doesn't invalidate that. So if A does prostitute himself/herself, A is exercising their power to perform acts which are considered by a portion of people to be self-degrading. Regardless of whether you consider Person A offering services as a prostitute to be degrading, it is (or it should be) entirely their choice. __________________ In the Court of King Crimson \| Last.fm \| RYM