Can God Give Free Will?

RVCA · 06-06-2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

To be fair, as long as it's regarded as the basis for belief and not knowledge, there's not much harm in it.

Euh... tell that to extremists around the world, flying planes into buildings and spending their children's college fund on billboards promoting the rapture. What's more, tell that to moderates around the world who use their beliefs to actively refute claims of knowledge based on evidence and reason.

djchameleon · 06-06-2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA

I quite disagree with "you can't disprove it and neither can I!" being a rational, or even accepted, basis for belief.

I don't get why you would disagree with that. belief doesn't need facts or logical reasons. It's based purely on perception/interpretation and information that is retrieved from holy text that the person chooses to believe in.

RVCA · 06-06-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

I don't get why you would disagree with that. belief doesn't need facts or logical reasons. It's based purely on perception/interpretation and information that is retrieved from holy text that the person chooses to believe in.

Nay, that's called faith.

djchameleon · 06-06-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA

Nay, that's called faith.

be·lief/biˈlēf/Noun
1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
2. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

RVCA · 06-06-2011, 05:27 PM

Actually, you're right. That is belief. Then I suppose beliefs fall on a spectrum; there are good, solid, and logical beliefs that are rational, reasonable, and justifiable, and then there are cruddy beliefs that reject any sort of reason or evidence. This is the part of the spectrum in which the claim that "God exists because you can't prove he/she/it doesn't" falls. It's a really cruddy belief that simply does not stand up to what I feel we should hold as the standard for believing things are true. If you use such a reason to support your belief in God, it makes me think you're liable to belief in any nonsensical thing.

Dotoar · 06-06-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA

Euh... tell that to extremists around the world, flying planes into buildings and spending their children's college fund on billboards promoting the rapture. What's more, tell that to moderates around the world who use their beliefs to actively refute claims of knowledge based on evidence and reason.

Well, belief is one thing and action is another. And, as I said, knowledge is yet another.

Howard the Duck · 06-06-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA

Actually, you're right. That is belief. Then I suppose beliefs fall on a spectrum; there are good, solid, and logical beliefs that are rational, reasonable, and justifiable, and then there are cruddy beliefs that reject any sort of reason or evidence. This is the part of the spectrum in which the claim that "God exists because you can't prove he/she/it doesn't" falls. It's a really cruddy belief that simply does not stand up to what I feel we should hold as the standard for believing things are true. If you use such a reason to support your belief in God, it makes me think you're liable to belief in any nonsensical thing.

it's a belief for me based on experiential perception and not tangible evidence

and as you may know, I'm a Gnostic Christian, i have come to the conclusion that God isn't much arsed about you and I

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 06-06-2011, 09:52 PM

What the ****'s the point of believing in God if you can't get your jesus jollies from it? Shouldn't he care for you? ****.

I for one think that this is a bunch of bull****, for example, Troll God's got my back

We have the free will to what we want but if we make the wrong choice, we burn in hell? Sorry no. We can't ask questions, because knowledge? Sorry, I can't believe in a god that forbids me to ask questions. This is scattered throughout the Bible, don't question God's authority, although we are perfect, made in god's image, etc etc. How much sense does it make to you that your god would gift us with intelligence and innate curiosity about our surroundings, yet forbid us to use it, except in his name? What would using our "gifts" in his name even entail? I find this to be very far-fetched, but then I believe the Bible to be much like every other story in mythology, hidden stories passing someone else's morals onto our children to scare them ****less. I guess I have a huge bone to pick with Christians because of this, they let someone's old stories dictate their morality. My mother is a devout christian, and she says some of the most callous ****, and it's all because of what she had forced in her head, I cannot help being disgusted by how christians pick and choose their code of ethics from the bible's buffet of platitudes.

I don't believe that anyone but ourselves can give those selves free will. I guess my existentialism is showing, but I feel that it's a hell of a lot more comforting to know that you're the one who sends you to hell. Hell as in you've wasted your ****ing life and you are now living in a box, or some such thing. I take great comfort in knowing that I'm perfectly free to determine my future and not some invisible creature in the sky. But I suppose people who are more weakwilled would rather leave that to the great unknown )(forgive me religious people, but I feel it's the truth, but I don't think any less of you for it, really)

Actually I'll amend that, I think it's totally human to want to believe there is something bigger than ourselves, and our fear of death feeds into the myth, making it much more enticing, because the fact our number of years on earth is finite.

Howard the Duck · 06-06-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paloma

What the ****'s the point of believing in God if you can't get your jesus jollies from it? Shouldn't he care for you? ****.

all my experience with God is that he is a pretty impartial chaotic non-judgmental entity

Jesus is just my advocate, I don't expect his love

i'm more into Christianity in the pursuit of knowledge, really

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 06-06-2011, 10:04 PM

What do you mean? That's pretty paradoxical to the whole religion as I have previously said...

06-06-2011, 05:27 PM	#95 (permalink)
RVCA （￣ー￣） Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,270	Actually, you're right. That is belief. Then I suppose beliefs fall on a spectrum; there are good, solid, and logical beliefs that are rational, reasonable, and justifiable, and then there are cruddy beliefs that reject any sort of reason or evidence. This is the part of the spectrum in which the claim that "God exists because you can't prove he/she/it doesn't" falls. It's a really cruddy belief that simply does not stand up to what I feel we should hold as the standard for believing things are true. If you use such a reason to support your belief in God, it makes me think you're liable to belief in any nonsensical thing.

06-06-2011, 09:52 PM	#98 (permalink)
~~Sansa Stark~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Eyrie, Vale of Arryn, Westeros Posts: 3,234	What the **'s the point of believing in God if you can't get your jesus jollies from it? Shouldn't he care for you? . I for one think that this is a bunch of bull, for example, Troll God's got my back We have the free will to what we want but if we make the wrong choice, we burn in hell? Sorry no. We can't ask questions, because knowledge? Sorry, I can't believe in a god that forbids me to ask questions. This is scattered throughout the Bible, don't question God's authority, although we are perfect, made in god's image, etc etc. How much sense does it make to you that your god would gift us with intelligence and innate curiosity about our surroundings, yet forbid us to use it, except in his name? What would using our "gifts" in his name even entail? I find this to be very far-fetched, but then I believe the Bible to be much like every other story in mythology, hidden stories passing someone else's morals onto our children to scare them less. I guess I have a huge bone to pick with Christians because of this, they let someone's old stories dictate their morality. My mother is a devout christian, and she says some of the most callous , and it's all because of what she had forced in her head, I cannot help being disgusted by how christians pick and choose their code of ethics from the bible's buffet of platitudes. I don't believe that anyone but ourselves can give those selves free will. I guess my existentialism is showing, but I feel that it's a hell of a lot more comforting to know that you're the one who sends you to hell. Hell as in you've wasted your **ing life and you are now living in a box, or some such thing. I take great comfort in knowing that I'm perfectly free to determine my future and not some invisible creature in the sky. But I suppose people who are more weakwilled would rather leave that to the great unknown )(forgive me religious people, but I feel it's the truth, but I don't think any less of you for it, really) Actually I'll amend that, I think it's totally human to want to believe there is something bigger than ourselves, and our fear of death feeds into the myth, making it much more enticing, because the fact our number of years on earth is finite.

06-06-2011, 10:04 PM	#100 (permalink)
~~Sansa Stark~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Eyrie, Vale of Arryn, Westeros Posts: 3,234	What do you mean? That's pretty paradoxical to the whole religion as I have previously said...