Can God Give Free Will?
 

Here's a bit of a brain teaser: Is God capable of giving humans free will?
(I use God to refer to the deity that is used by Catholicism, the same idea could apply to many God/god/gods)

I would argue no.
Let's say that God creates a human being. God creates this human being with the full knowledge of past, present, and future since God is said to be all powerful and all knowing.

Because God is all powerful, he also has the power to create or not create this human. And he must be totally aware of what he is creating since he is all knowing. So then if God creates a human that is destined to eat the fruit of knowledge and damn all humanity to an existence of sin and pain, than not only did he create that human with full knowledge of that humans destiny, but he then also therefore created that human with the purpose of damning all humanity in such a way. The actions of that human were the intended effects of that particular individual, created by God, in that particular environment, created by God.

As this applies to all humans, life forms, objects, etc, etc etc, God is therefore solely responsible for all sin, pain, suffering etc.

As a result I can only conclude that if this God does exist, we actually have no free will and therefore we have no responsibility for our actions - all responsibility falls on God who created us with this destiny and for the purpose of living the life we live.

Here is an example of the relationship between a human creator and a robot which is very different. If a human creates a robot, and the robot was built improperly and so malfunctions in a destructive way, it is the fault of the human creator for being an incompetent designer. If the human had full knowledge that the malfunction would occur, the effects of the malfunction would be the intention of the creator and therefore it would be the fault of the creator for being immoral. This isn't about if the creator accidentally started a device that he knew would malfunction, its about intentionally starting a device which would malfunction with full knowledge of the effects and progression of events that would follow.

Feel free to comment any counterarguments or elaborate on how this would relate to any other deities or paradoxes ect.

Spoiler:

Humans created God

Like the answer to all religious debates, maybe.

Maybe God doesn't give two ****s, and just wants to watch us running around like ants, and blowing each other up

All powerful, and all knowing doesn't mean 'not a sick ****'.

If you were all knowing wouldn't that bore the hell out of you anyway? Why bother doing something if you already know what's going to happen down to the most infinitely regressing detail? I'd shoot myself in the head.

God created suffering by allowing the Devil to roam the earth. We do have free will, we can chose to be moral and 'good' or follow a path of evil. It's our choice. He can't interfere with our lives, only design them to follow a certain path. Suffering and pain is what tests our faith because once you die and get to heaven the suffering will be gone. I'm saying it rather simplified but it doesn't always need to sound that complicated.

Haha... I knw that's right.

Yeah, but that's half the fun of it. I mean, as boring as it'd be, it's not as boring as sitting around not doing anything at all.

That's why he created man, and dinosaurs, and put them on the earth at the same time. The Snake in the Garden of Eden was a T-rex!

Does God create each individual person in your view? If so, doesn't creation of a person count as interference?

If you believe that God has anything to do with your existence, than I think you would have to view that as interference since he would have gotten the ball rolling full knowing what would happen afterword. It would be like an inconceivably large Rube Golberg machine, you would know exactly what you were causing into reality.

Well we are gonna have to go over what really constitutes as 'free will.' There are always restraints on us, we can never truly make every decision completely freely.

Well, I think the point Coleman is trying to make is that if God can predict the future then everything is predestined. IE. There is no free will because everything will essentially play out as he already knows.

So, essentially, the real question is:

Is it really feasible to have an all knowing creator who knows all time from beginning to end infinitely yet still giving man the ability to make choices which impact the course of the future?

"playing out as he knows" and "the little ants still making their own choices" are two different things. I can give a rat free will to traverse a maze I built for him, knowing the only way out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm making the rat's choices for it.
(But I have still built the cage...)

What should really be examined is that free will is, according to religion, only a two way street. In one hand, the choices you make will lead to damnation, and in the other, will lead to salvation. To me, the free will portion of this sort of choice is rigged. You can either obey the will of god, and go to heaven... or disobey, and spend eternity in hell. So in effect, what we (according to religion) have is simply the free will to decide whether we want to be rewarded, or punished. I suspect most folks would consider that a rigged game.
I suspect that most folks would consider that a scenario of "free to do what you want, but you'll suffer by not doing what I want you to do."

I really want to hear a theists argument against that. (not that I think I'm impenetrable... I'm actually curious)

^^To me, it just kinda brings the question what is beyond heaven and hell that would require, or be the cause of such a black or white scenario.....Would it be simply the nearness(heaven) or distance(hell)^^ between one and a deity? The oneness of all or the isolation of many(souls or energies)?

I think I've simply decided that people who believe in a deity that interferes with human life on a personal scale... aren't worth my time

:rofl: You bring up a good point. The game is rigged. You have the free will to disobey god and go to hell but upon further examination. Christians also believe in "second chances" So you can go around doing whatever you want and sinning but as soon as you choose to accept him as your savoir then you are saved and this can occur on your death bed when you are about to die in like say the next five mins and technically you are supposed to be able to go to heaven.

You can be the most evil person and do whatever the hell you want but just make sure you repent a few mins before you die and you are gravy!

Say on a hot summer day, you saw your friend pick up a hamburger that he found in a trash can and before he started to eat it you said "No don't, that's a bad idea." He say "Why?" And you said "Food poisoning - I don't want you to get sick, I don't want you to eat it." and he's like "no biggie," then you say "you'll suffer by not doing what I want you to do." So saying that doesn't mean you want him to suffer it's just that you know the consequences of eating bad food.

Right but it's a different story if you put him in an empty white room with the hamburger, made him sit there starving, and also happened to be the one who ensured that the hamburger was food poisoned.

That's not a good analogy that I'm making, but just as an extension of the one you started let's say. And also add in the added bonus that you are psychic and you already knew whether he would eat the hamburger. So you created the situation knowing the result that would come of it. This more closely resembles the hypothetical situation of God.

So... having sex out of wedlock is the equivalent of eating a rotten hamburger?

That goes away from my example of between knowing something can happen and wanting/wishing for something to happen. I was trying to point out that just because God knows what can happen in the future because a result of people's immorality does not mean God wants people to be immoral.

A perfectly benevolent God would not act malevolent.

I don't see why God couldn't install a randomizing script into our programs.

Can God move an immovable rock? Either he's all knowing or he's not.

Well, in that case, your question is, frankly, stupid. Any answer debunks God as we know it.

Well then they would call that a rhetorical question.

Then why the heck is this a thread?

Don't answer that. It was rhetorical.

Fine then I wont answer it. But I could if I wanted to...

According to you, you don't have a choice in the matter. ;)

There's no way to prove free will, just like there's no way to prove predestination. Any action could be (mis)construed as being predestined, no matter how random. The idea of free will makes people feel empowered. The idea of predestination gives people an overall sense of security, with "everything happening according to God's plan."

I stand in the corner of free will. I would hate to think that "God" predestined millions of Jews to die in the Holocaust, 3,000+ people to die on 9/11, my uncle to die from a brain tumor, or me to go through a hellacious divorce (especially just to "test our faith" as Vanilla says). That would be pretty sh*tty in my opinion.

Why would "God" predestine people to go against his will? If he is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, why would he need to make us suffer in order to test our faith in him? The Bible says that he is a "jealous God." What does he have to be jealous of? Unless he has legitimate competition, why sweat it? It seems that he needs us to worship and obey him just as much as we "need" him. If everyone has free will, what if everyone chose to disobey him and follow Satan? According to him, the whole world would go to Hell, and he would be sitting alone in heaven with his thumb up his ass. What good does that do anyone?

With no proof of an afterlife, wouldn't it behove him to give us some incentive in THIS life to follow him?

If I compared the difference philosophical difference between you and a rock, I couldn't bring up the idea you have free will and a rock doesn't? - because there's no way to prove it?

You couldn't prove it as far as I can see... But I would consider that a rock has no will at all, and therefore has no free will.

I suppose you couldn't prove the existence of free will or pre-destiny... but either way I would say that free will is by far the better assumption to make. But if you're talking about history, than pre-destiny does sort of exist because we can know for sure what did happen to some extent, and then we can look farther back into history and say that that person had a destiny to do a certain thing that also happened in history.

For example maybe we can say that Germany was destined to lose WW1.

See, this part I never understand. If God is a perfect being/entity then why would he be jealous? Jealousy is a human emotion. The bible also states that he is a loving God but also vengeful or something along those lines. Again, two more human emotions. Why would a perfect being NEED to be constantly worshiped by his creations? it doesn't make any fucking sense imo. :usehead:

On a side note, I was scrolling down the forum and briefly thought this thread read "Can God give free wifi?", to which I thought "I wish".

God can give free Wifi!

You just need to go to church more often and pray to him nightly.

It all makes sense if you think of religion as a means of damage control.

No, you couldn't. You couldn't prove that my actions were done out of free will, or if they were predestined by God. Just as you could not prove that a rock "chose" to lay on the ground, or if God predestined it to lay there. I'm obviously humoring you, as a comparison between a conscious being and a rock is ridiculous.

I guess you misread the tone of my previous post. As long as there are people that believe in an all knowing, all powerful God, the ideas of free will versus predestination will always be in question. Setting aside religious beliefs, any person with an ounce of common sense can see that people choose their own actions. If they didn't, then no one would be punished for a crime, since they supposedly didn't "choose" to do it, it was "predestined."

Why do you only have the alleged perp predestined to commit crimes, would not law enforcement also be predestined to arrest, prosecute and incarcerate the alleged perp?

I assumed that you could infer as much, which you clearly did. Are you trying to argue for arguments sake?

And atheists are accused of believing that the universe is pointless (which it is).

I believe that's really more of a Nihilistic point of view.

Yes. God is capable of giving humans free will. Just the fact that HE let you create this thread without having your fingers bleed is one proof.

No human being has the full knowledge of the past and the future. I forgot what I ate for lunch exactly 1 week ago and don't know what I'll be eating tomorrow. God creates us humans full of imperfections and flaws and that's what makes us perfect in HIS eyes. That's what also makes the world interesting and beautiful.

Not all humans think about damning humanity. Also, it's never God's intentions to make the world miserable by creating humans. Some humans tend to be violent and evil by means of choice. For example, instead of trying to break a fight between 2 guys, some try to view it as entertainment?

God is not responsible for anything humans are doing here on earth. But because He loves us all, He dies on the cross to save all of us from eternal hell.

If i broke something, I take responsiblity with it and try to fix it myself. Is this just another case of you being afraid of accepting your mistakes in life?

I don't wanna compare myself (human) to a mere robot.
Is it really that hard for you to view God as a loving, caring, nurturing, understanding, good God than just a mere creator?

i'm guessing you're experiencing a hard time in your life and blaming God for all of it. well, just pray very hard and take responsibility of your actions.