Do atheists believe that Jesus existed?

**Janszoon** · 06-09-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

1) We do have their writings, but not the original, handwritten copies. Only copies of copies of copies of transcripts of copies. While it seems overwhelmingly likely that they existed, we cannot be completely sure, that their writings were not written by a small group of conspirators. Perhaps even much later.

Could be. I guess one never knows. They do have more evidence for their existence than Jesus does though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

2) You continue to take that out of a context... You, my friend, need to work on your debating skills. I promise I'll work on my english skills then. What is there is a comparison between Yeshua and an Urban Legend. Both of them developed over a short period of time - as opposed to Hercules, who therefore has nothing to do with this, really - but people would have been much more concerned about the details about Yeshua, since he meant much more to them.

I posted a quote from you and asked what it meant. How is that taking it out of context?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

3) Seruously? You want me to do your work? It's not my job to develop counter-thesises, when I'm perfectly fine believing in the dominant one. That would be your job.

You are the one making the assertion. The burden of proof is on you. Sorry, them's the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

You, my friend, has stopped seeming like a sceptic to me. You seem more like a denier (which does not mean that you are like other kinds of deniers). But ok. As I see it, there are three thesises:

Er... okay. If being ambivalent about the issue makes me a denier I guess that's the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

1) Yeshua. What are the problems with this thesis? Yes there is a lack of concrete evidence (if you discount the gospels, the dead sea scrolls and Josephus, which hardly is what a historian would do...), but that isn't really surprising, so it can't be used as evidence against it.

I would think that a historian who bases their opinions on mythology would be someone who isn't very good at their job but, hey, maybe it's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

2) Developed out of folklore. Elements of Jesus definitely did so. But some of the details, like dying under Pilatus, like coming from Nazareth. There is such an agreement about this, and it has happened in 40 years, that it seems unlikely. I would say, that there must be some agency behind it.

There is agreement about a lot of Hercules' life as well I'm sure. I guess that makes him real, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

3) Conspiracy. Some people made it up to further their own goals. But then much of the gospels seem counterproductive. Why would he be from Nazareth? Why would he have followed John the Baptist if he had been the Messiah all along? Why did he talk against giving money to the church (something the church completely negated afterwards, obviously).

This one seems like a non-point to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

I can't see other hypothesis. The story of the creation of the gospels is probably a mixture of the three, but without a healthy dose of 1) it becomes really hard to explain.

Why?

**Janszoon** · 06-09-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

The existence of Socrates isn't really important compared to the question of Jesus's existence. Let me explain why:

The fictional or real character of Socrates leaves us philosophy in writings which we may still study to this day. The merit of those writings aren't dependent on them being said by Socrates, because they would mean the same if they came from anyone.

Jesus on the other hand, was supposed to be the son of God. So the words credited to him are completely dependent on it being him who said them. If someone who was not the son of God said them, then their merit becomes far far less.

Exactly.

SATCHMO · 06-09-2011, 10:55 PM

Aren't we in a way making the assumption that if Jesus did exist as a human being that that would automatically validate the Christian philosophy, doctrine, and any supernatural claims that surrounds his existence? It doesn't.

And while we do not have any original copies of any of the New Testament gospels (It wouldn't matter if we did, it's still all conjecture), there are a few of the original Pauline epistles preserved and intact.

Engine · 06-09-2011, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

Aren't we in a way making the assumption that if Jesus did exist as a human being that that would automatically validate the Christian philosophy, doctrine, and any supernatural claims that surrounds his existence? It doesn't.

No of course we're not. Does it seem that way? Read back.

SATCHMO · 06-09-2011, 11:57 PM

Hey it's all anal beads to me...

or rosary beads, if that's more thread appropriate...

or a peacock feather.

Gregor XIII · 06-10-2011, 02:09 AM

Right, I'm stopping my participation in this debate, Janszoon. I don't know if you won't discuss this subject in a reasonable way, or if you're simply not able to do so, but your answers were sort of embarassing. I've said my piece, and it's been great thinking about this issue. It is an interesting question. But I can see we're not getting any further. If anyone want's to give real answers to what I wrote on the page before, feel free to do so.

Best wishes everyone.

Howard the Duck · 06-10-2011, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

Right, I'm stopping my participation in this debate, Janszoon. I don't know if you won't discuss this subject in a reasonable way, or if you're simply not able to do so, but your answers were sort of embarassing. I've said my piece, and it's been great thinking about this issue. It is an interesting question. But I can see we're not getting any further. If anyone want's to give real answers to what I wrote on the page before, feel free to do so.

Best wishes everyone.

The Virgin redux.

Guybrush · 06-10-2011, 02:49 AM

The story of Jesus has a lot in common with other religious beings and stories. For example, the idea of the king who has to suffer and die or be sacrificed for the good of the land and the people is old and not uncommon, one example being Domalde. Since I mentioned the movie Wicker Man yesterday, I can squeeze in a mention here too as it has a similar theme

The idea of the ressurrection deity who dies and comes back is also old and precedes Jesus by thousands of years. Probably, most if not all of these ideas come from primitive rites and ideas about re-fertilizing a barren land. Since I mentioned Wicker Man, maybe I can also mention Princess Mononoke here

Christian holidays coincide with many annual pagan events and other pagan ideas certainly could have influenced or ignited the spark which became the story of Jesus.

**Janszoon** · 06-10-2011, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor XIII

Right, I'm stopping my participation in this debate, Janszoon. I don't know if you won't discuss this subject in a reasonable way, or if you're simply not able to do so, but your answers were sort of embarassing. I've said my piece, and it's been great thinking about this issue. It is an interesting question. But I can see we're not getting any further. If anyone want's to give real answers to what I wrote on the page before, feel free to do so.

Best wishes everyone.

Thank you for this morning dose of unintentional irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

The Virgin redux.

~~The Virgin~~ · 06-10-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

Hey it's all anal beads to me...

or rosary beads, if that's more thread appropriate...

or a peacock feather.

that right there is just downright blasphemy.
i'll pray for you and hope God won't take offense on this.

06-10-2011, 02:09 AM	#66 (permalink)
Gregor XIII Music Addict Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego Posts: 57	Right, I'm stopping my participation in this debate, Janszoon. I don't know if you won't discuss this subject in a reasonable way, or if you're simply not able to do so, but your answers were sort of embarassing. I've said my piece, and it's been great thinking about this issue. It is an interesting question. But I can see we're not getting any further. If anyone want's to give real answers to what I wrote on the page before, feel free to do so. Best wishes everyone. __________________ Agnes Varda's Le Bonheur + thoughts on women in Akhmatova and Mizuguchi: The Centrifugue

06-10-2011, 02:49 AM	#68 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	The story of Jesus has a lot in common with other religious beings and stories. For example, the idea of the king who has to suffer and die or be sacrificed for the good of the land and the people is old and not uncommon, one example being Domalde. Since I mentioned the movie Wicker Man yesterday, I can squeeze in a mention here too as it has a similar theme The idea of the ressurrection deity who dies and comes back is also old and precedes Jesus by thousands of years. Probably, most if not all of these ideas come from primitive rites and ideas about re-fertilizing a barren land. Since I mentioned Wicker Man, maybe I can also mention Princess Mononoke here Christian holidays coincide with many annual pagan events and other pagan ideas certainly could have influenced or ignited the spark which became the story of Jesus. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 06-10-2011 at 06:41 AM.

06-09-2011, 10:55 PM	#63 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	Aren't we in a way making the assumption that if Jesus did exist as a human being that that would automatically validate the Christian philosophy, doctrine, and any supernatural claims that surrounds his existence? It doesn't. And while we do not have any original copies of any of the New Testament gospels (It wouldn't matter if we did, it's still all conjecture), there are a few of the original Pauline epistles preserved and intact.

06-09-2011, 11:57 PM	#65 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	Hey it's all anal beads to me... or rosary beads, if that's more thread appropriate... or a peacock feather.