Do atheists believe that Jesus existed?

Neapolitan · 06-10-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Do I think the character of Jesus may have been loosely based on a real person or people whose stories have been interwoven with traditional folklore from the region but not necessarily from the specific location or time period suggested by Christians? Seems fairly likely, but again, when you're talking about ancient oral traditions, who's to say where they come from.

The Gospels are not ancient oral traditions where the writers of the Gospel wrote them down hundreds of years later where generation and generations pass them on by word of mouth unitl it was written down and then attributed to a writer. With Jesus there were 4 witness in the form of the writers of the 4 Gospels that were written within a few decades after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So in this case people do when and where these stories started. That is not true with mythological character who origins are lost to the ages.

**Janszoon** · 06-10-2011, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

The Gospels are not ancient oral traditions where the writers of the Gospel wrote them down hundreds of years later where generation and generations pass them on by word of mouth unitl it was written down and then attributed to a writer. With Jesus there were 4 witness in the form of the writers of the 4 Gospels that were written within a few decades after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So in this case people do when and where these stories started. That is not true with mythological character who origins are lost to the ages.

Er, no. Please read this.

SATCHMO · 06-11-2011, 12:07 AM

I think something to posit here as an aside to the debate regarding whether or not Jesus existed, is what the lack of historical record surrounding his life and crucifiction implies.

For one, the Roman empire was notoriously thorough in keeping records of everything that happened. There are no roman records of Jesus life or death and all the upheaval that the gospels portray as surrounding the passion of christ. This means that he was a person who never existed or someone who's ministry and death were greatly exagerated in the new testament. Essentially, in the 30 year span between Jesus' death and the first gospel, Jesus was deified. If the accounts of Jeus' life were accurate there would have at least been records of his dealings with Pontious Pilate. There are not.

Secondly, Christian doctrine had been established prior to the compilation of the biblical canon, namely The New Testament. In case nobody is aware, Christian doctrine was essentially voted upon by a committee at the Council of Nicaea If you're a christian that will blow your mind, and yes, it is historically documented fact. The tricky part here is that only scriptures that perfectly aligned with Christian doctrine were included in The New Testament. There are more relevant scriptures that are contemporary with the life of Christ that have been left out of the New Testament than are included in it. What's more, all subsequent interpretation and translations of the New Testament have been filtered through the lens of doctrine and political agenda.

Obviously that's the tip of the iceburg. What we know of as the Holy Bible is quite possibly the most disfigured and disjointed compilation of literature that the world may know, so in my mind his existence is a moot point. I like to believe that Jesus existed because my subversive nature really jives with his story. I also like to believe that if most holier-than-though holy roller Christians saw Jesus lurking anywhere near their home, they'd probably lock all the doors and call the police. I don't think Jesus was the messiah or the son of god, but I choose to believe he existed. Why? Because I think he was a badass.

Howard the Duck · 06-11-2011, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

that right there is just downright blasphemy.
i'll pray for you and hope God won't take offense on this.

and I'll pray for your sinful soul so that you won't burn in Hell

Neapolitan · 06-11-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Er, no. Please read this.

I enjoyed the first time I read it when it was a part of Biblical commentary.

Sljslj · 06-15-2011, 12:08 AM

I'm not an athiest, but I was for a long time. I now absolutely believe in God, but I don't follow any specific religion. Anyway....

I don't believe Jesus ever did exist. The story of Jesus is just a combination of maybe a dozen earlier stories from various religions. I've done my research and I know this to be a fact.

~~The Virgin~~ · 06-15-2011, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Er, no. Please read this.

was that even a valid site?

~~[MERIT]~~ · 06-15-2011, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sljslj

I don't believe Jesus ever did exist. The story of Jesus is just a combination of maybe a dozen earlier stories from various religions. I've done my research and I know this to be a fact.

No matter how much research anyone does, it is impossible to know that for a fact. His story is nearly identical to lots of other ancient stories, but that doesn't automatically preclude him from existing, albeit having his story embellished.

**Janszoon** · 06-15-2011, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I enjoyed the first time I read it when it was a part of Biblical commentary.

Oh okay, so you know what you were saying above what incorrect then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

was that even a valid site?

Yes, and a fairly well known one. It's not an in-depth scholarly analysis or anything but it is a good summary of the established scholarship on the subject.

Howard the Duck · 06-15-2011, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Yes, and a fairly well known one. It's not an in-depth scholarly analysis or anything but it is a good summary of the established scholarship on the subject.

oh yes, smarter than average Biblical scholar, Thee Virgin is

(my sides hurt)

06-15-2011, 12:08 AM	#76 (permalink)
Sljslj The Omniscient Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Reno, Nevada, USA Posts: 998	I'm not an athiest, but I was for a long time. I now absolutely believe in God, but I don't follow any specific religion. Anyway.... I don't believe Jesus ever did exist. The story of Jesus is just a combination of maybe a dozen earlier stories from various religions. I've done my research and I know this to be a fact. __________________ MY LYRICS

06-11-2011, 12:07 AM	#73 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	I think something to posit here as an aside to the debate regarding whether or not Jesus existed, is what the lack of historical record surrounding his life and crucifiction implies. For one, the Roman empire was notoriously thorough in keeping records of everything that happened. There are no roman records of Jesus life or death and all the upheaval that the gospels portray as surrounding the passion of christ. This means that he was a person who never existed or someone who's ministry and death were greatly exagerated in the new testament. Essentially, in the 30 year span between Jesus' death and the first gospel, Jesus was deified. If the accounts of Jeus' life were accurate there would have at least been records of his dealings with Pontious Pilate. There are not. Secondly, Christian doctrine had been established prior to the compilation of the biblical canon, namely The New Testament. In case nobody is aware, Christian doctrine was essentially voted upon by a committee at the Council of Nicaea If you're a christian that will blow your mind, and yes, it is historically documented fact. The tricky part here is that only scriptures that perfectly aligned with Christian doctrine were included in The New Testament. There are more relevant scriptures that are contemporary with the life of Christ that have been left out of the New Testament than are included in it. What's more, all subsequent interpretation and translations of the New Testament have been filtered through the lens of doctrine and political agenda. Obviously that's the tip of the iceburg. What we know of as the Holy Bible is quite possibly the most disfigured and disjointed compilation of literature that the world may know, so in my mind his existence is a moot point. I like to believe that Jesus existed because my subversive nature really jives with his story. I also like to believe that if most holier-than-though holy roller Christians saw Jesus lurking anywhere near their home, they'd probably lock all the doors and call the police. I don't think Jesus was the messiah or the son of god, but I choose to believe he existed. Why? Because I think he was a badass.