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Old 12-15-2011, 09:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mr dave View Post
I tend to be a pretty big skeptic to the supernatural and while I don't necessarily believe in the Astral Plane as a separate physical realm of existence I do believe in OBEs to a relative extent.

I do NOT at all buy into the idea that drug use / abuse opens the mind to true spiritual development. It might help the conscious mind adapt to weirder ideas and open yourself up to different theories etc but as far as my personal experiences go with meditation (transcendental) and attempts at freeing my mind from my body - sobriety is key. Normally that style of meditation is very relaxing and the most substantial effects I've felt is the full extent of the rush and flow of blood throughout my body with every heartbeat (though it's always been an incredibly fleeting event).

For myself the most significant experiences I've had with the practice came about during a period around 10 years ago when I had stopped smoking pot and found I had to relax myself a lot more than 'normal' in order to fall asleep, hence the meditation. After a few weeks I started noticing that my mind was waking up before my body which definitely lends itself to the whole idea of lucid waking dreams. But then I started noticing odd things, like I could clearly see my room from my bed even though it felt like my eyes were still shut (there's also the fact that I NEED glasses to see anything clearly and I always take them off before getting into bed).

My theory on the matter is that due to practicing the meditation in bed while I was trying to fall asleep my body was falling into a transcendental state (similar to how you mention having a hard time moving your hands with the binaural beat experiment) but then my mind would fall asleep, come morning my body was still in a trance which allowed my mind the freedom to awake and operate independently.

Either way, after a few more mornings of seeing my room before I opened my eyes I tried 'stepping out' for lack of a better term. When I woke up being able to see the room clearly (which I normally am not able to do) I choose to try getting out of bed (which kind of felt like floating upward in a pool but without the resistance of water), then I started 'walking' out of the room, and while still consciously recognizing that my body should still technically be sleeping in my bed I tried turning around. And everything broke. The clarity of my vision was replaced with a bright light but an intense feeling of dread and it took significant mental effort to wake my body after that point. I've never managed to experience something like that since.

I realize this is entirely a single shot anecdotal piece of evidence but where it directly happened to me I can't explain it as anything other than having experienced the feeling of inhabiting my soul independently of my body.
Not that I advocate drug use, but either way you cut it, whether drug influenced or Excitatory gnosis (meditation for instance), you are inducing Trance, which is an altered state of consciousness and can be used to liberate the psyche/unconsciousness towards experiences not associated with the Objective Universe (material plane).
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ironically, drugs don't 'add' anything to the mind, but rather allow for certain neurochemical releases to take place, in other words It is already inside of us, we just have to release the experience.
Well the question might turn to "What are we, what is our mind, and where are we... What is reality?" or such. I mean, they say our five senses only account for but a percent (or was it 10%) of what reality is. We can not begin to comprehend. What hallucinogens like DMT, LSD, mushrooms, and salvia seem to do, amongst other things, is enable us to see more of reality than we typically can. That's the way it appears, but it's really what you say. The chemicals. What did Bill Hicks say

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"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."
That quote has always stood with me since I was a teenager and heard it in a Tool song, sampled at the beginning of Third Eye I believe and that's pretty much what I found taking these kinds of things. Whether that's because that's what I wanted to see so that's what I saw or whether that's the way it is is not debatable, but I feel right about it.


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Wow, thanks for that experience mr. dave! That's really interesting, as I've previously heard that viewing your body or looking back on it once you "leave" it, in whatever sense that implies, will rip you out of your experience. Seems this happened to you. I'll have to remember not to do that if I ever manage to have one, which given my current progress, doesn't seem as unlikely as it did just this morning. I've only really started meditating recently and I've been really impressed with the benefits (both practical like relaxation and experimental like astral projection.)
When I spotted my best friend on his salvia trip, he laid in his bed and I was sitting at the computer desk a few feet away, we had Tool going, and as it set in he drifted away from the bed, looking down upon me and him in his bed. The walls came down, and fell away and he drifted farther out until it was hard to make us out, and continued to fly off into space, landing on the planet of the Ewoks from Star Wars Return of the Jedi and watched Tool play a vivid performance of the song Pu**** for him and the Ewoks.

Point being, he was able to see himself from outside his body and it didn't break his trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr dave
Either way, after a few more mornings of seeing my room before I opened my eyes I tried 'stepping out' for lack of a better term. When I woke up being able to see the room clearly (which I normally am not able to do) I choose to try getting out of bed (which kind of felt like floating upward in a pool but without the resistance of water), then I started 'walking' out of the room, and while still consciously recognizing that my body should still technically be sleeping in my bed I tried turning around. And everything broke. The clarity of my vision was replaced with a bright light but an intense feeling of dread and it took significant mental effort to wake my body after that point. I've never managed to experience something like that since.
My (same) best friend also had this kind of experience as well, also the one Conan described with the not being able to move and starting to vibrate but he freaked out and still is a bit scared of that feeling.

He also has success in lucid dreaming. He loves to sleep because his dreams are like his personal playground/Matrix. He realizes he's dreaming often and Neo's out of there and flies around. He used to tell me the most amazing dreams. I'm envious. I don't see him fibbing about this stuff either. It's all fantasticly hard to believe, but I trust him completely.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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When I spotted my best friend on his salvia trip, he laid in his bed and I was sitting at the computer desk a few feet away, we had Tool going, and as it set in he drifted away from the bed, looking down upon me and him in his bed. The walls came down, and fell away and he drifted farther out until it was hard to make us out, and continued to fly off into space, landing on the planet of the Ewoks from Star Wars Return of the Jedi and watched Tool play a vivid performance of the song Pu**** for him and the Ewoks.

Point being, he was able to see himself from outside his body and it didn't break his trip.
That's interesting, and your friend must be a pretty awesome guy for his subconscious to project attending a Tool concert on the forest moon of Endor.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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My mother is a very interesting lady, and she claims that she frequently has OBEs. One of my more vivid memories of something she's informed me is when I was about 16 talking about Astral Projection, she said, "All you have to do is wait until you vibrate, and you can go anywhere."

I'm not COMPLETELY closed off to the idea of OBEs not being legitimately leaving your body, but that's never been the perception I've had. I do respect my mother a lot, and she's extremely intelligent, but I do think that we've had similar experiences, albeit different perceptions.

I seriously don't know.
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Old 12-16-2011, 01:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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That's interesting, and your friend must be a pretty awesome guy for his subconscious to project attending a Tool concert on the forest moon of Endor.
Yeah I love that mofo.

Tool's his favorite band and we were listening to Tool when he was tripping. And Star Wars was one of his favorites growing up. It boggles my mind the way his mind works. And how he reacts compared to how I react.
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Old 12-16-2011, 01:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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My mother is a very interesting lady, and she claims that she frequently has OBEs. One of my more vivid memories of something she's informed me is when I was about 16 talking about Astral Projection, she said, "All you have to do is wait until you vibrate, and you can go anywhere."

I'm not COMPLETELY closed off to the idea of OBEs not being legitimately leaving your body, but that's never been the perception I've had. I do respect my mother a lot, and she's extremely intelligent, but I do think that we've had similar experiences, albeit different perceptions.

I seriously don't know.
I guess I'm really the same way, although its likely because I'm just undecided as I've yet to fully experience it. I can say that those vibrations freaked me out, and as I was still skeptical beforehand they came as quite a shock.

I'm trying again either tomorrow morning or this weekend, might even chew a little salvia (although to be positive I'm not just feeling the effects of a drug I'd like to try it sober firstly). I'll definitely report anything if there is anything to report.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:26 AM   #17 (permalink)
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What kind of salvia do you chew on? I haven't done salvia since '07. Back then they only had one brand, which was a powder extract, with different potencies from 5x to 50x and there was an XXX heh heh. Last time I went to a headshop they were selling some different 'brand' that had a color coded system. But it was still black powdery stuff.

And the only way to do salvia (with this stuff) the correct way was to load it in the bong and hit it with a torch (regular lighters don't heat it up enough), and to hold it for 20-30 seconds until "vision begins to vibrate or blur", where upon exhalation the effects take hold.

That was the only way I'm familiar with. What's up with chewing? Is this different stuff, or do you not even want the full effects?
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Chewing (sublingually absorbing the salvia) is a modern twist on the centuries old Mazatec method of using salvia (which was actually swallowing the leaves). Chewing is best done by rolling leaves (fresh works the best) into a "quid" or ball and keeping them under the tongue for 15 to 20 minutes. This will produce a longer lasting, more meditative state that's supposedly more suited for exploration – although it will never be as powerful as smoking. I don't smoke anyway, but I also think smoking salvia might actually be squandering its usefulness in self-exploration by making it too powerful. I basically want it as a supplement in this instance.

I'm actually going to chew on that black powdery stuff (an extract). Never done it before, don't know how effective it will be. I'm a little nervous because extract is 10x more powerful than leaves (which you can buy online now), hence the name 10x. However, sublingual absorption is far less effective anyway so 1 gram of chewed extract might equal about a tenth of the gram that people usually smoke.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Yes, I agree. Thanks for clearing that up as I didn't mean to say that science seeks to devalue OBE experiences, but rather that some are of the belief that the hallucinations are random and the personal value is entirely dependent upon later assumptions and bias, as opposed to truly retreating into the mind as ThePhantastasio describes below.



I have never tried any sort of substance induced OBE experimentation, but just today I did feel something quite unlike anything I've yet to experience through plain and simple meditation.

I was actually playing a binaural beat (theta) while laying down and meditating. As much as I'd like to believe binaural beats do anything significant to brain waves, the jury is still out - and I was really only playing it as a way to drown out ambiance. Anyway, after about 45 minutes of relaxation I became partially paralyzed, perhaps not physically but psychologically I couldn't quite signal my hands to move anywhere beyond a slight nudge. It was as if they were being held in place. After about 15 more minutes of this sensation on again, off again, something really frightening happened. My entire body felt as if started vibrating. This startled me so much that I tore my blindfold off and stopped the music (so apparently with enough of a want to I could indeed move).

I was quite disappointed with myself for not sticking with it and seeing where it went. Especially after reading that the "Vibrating stage" occurs right before an OBE.

I'm still in awe of it all. With absolutely no religious pretext whatsoever I was still able to experience something so.. different. And without the use of a substance.. it's all just concentration. The mind is an incredibly powerful thing. My personal theory is that those who can "astral project" at will have trained their body to fall asleep while their mind stays awake. It's really an amazing concept to me.

Wow. Very interesting story.

I once had a dream, if that's what it was. I don't know what to call it, a "waking dream" perhaps. But in this experience, I found myself awake and looking around my room. It was dark when I went to bed and When I awoke (in this OBE as it seemed) I did not turn my light on, yet it was bright in my room. I just remember walking and looking around for a little bit. The next thing I remember is trying to move my hands and open my eyes, but I couldn't. I remember thinking to myself: "am I blind? Am I dead?" it was quite scary. Finally, somehow, I was able to open my eyes and wake my body. It was so strange.

O ya, during this experience i could not see my arms or legs or any other part of my body. Almost as if my body wasn't there.

What do you make out of this? I'd like to get someones opinion on it. I'm not very knowledgable about this kind of thing. Although I'm very interested in this subject.

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Old 12-16-2011, 03:15 AM   #20 (permalink)
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"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."
Seems to me the problem with this kind of drug induced so called wisdom is that it's no more profound than what any teenager with a hint of imagination could think of when looking up at a starry sky at night. What's different is the way it feels, but those feelings are created by your brain on drugs and not from being part of the cosmos or whatever (which we are 24/7 anyways) .. Drugs can make thoughts like this feel more profound, but that's it.

I believe in the usefulness of drugs for exploring past memories and so. That's a better path to drug-induced wisdom, I think.
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