'Dark Knight Rises' screening shooting in suburban Denver (12 dead, 38 wounded)

**Janszoon** · 07-22-2012, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

If I was living in the USA now, how easy would it be for me to buy a gun? Do I just walk into a hardware store and provide them with some documentation and then I get registered etc and then they sell me the gun? Also is it the same in every state?

The laws are very different from state to state, as is the attitude toward guns.

Unknown Soldier · 07-22-2012, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

Almost all illegal guns used here are smuggled in from the US. Only a small number of them are actually registered and legally owned.

Never realized that, but I guess if you want the gun for possible criminal activities you wouldn't want to be registered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

The laws are very different from state to state, as is the attitude toward guns.

That's interesting, for example what are considered gun pro-states and which states are more opposed to them?

**Frownland** · 07-22-2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

If I was living in the USA now, how easy would it be for me to buy a gun? Do I just walk into a hardware store and provide them with some documentation and then I get registered etc and then they sell me the gun? Also is it the same in every state?

In California, you can't buy a gun with a felony in your records. There's also a certain wait period I think. It definitely varies from state to state. In Texas you can get one with your whiskey at the gas station with no background checks. Or so I've heard.

blastingas10 · 07-22-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger ?

Never really understood this reasoning.
If anything if someone breaks into your house and you put an extra gun into the mix I would have thought all that would do is escalate the tension & make things more unsafe, not protect you.

That makes a lot of sense. "kill me and my family, I'll even hand over my gun, I just don't want this to escalate." Bam, you're dead without even trying to fight back because you just didn't want things to "escalate". That's just being too damn passive. Relying on your ability to beg for your life probably isnt the best idea.

I understand why people are for gun control, what I don't understand is how anyone could think its going to stop incidents like this from happening. It's going to create an ever bigger black market for guns and put even more power into the hands of criminals.

**Janszoon** · 07-22-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

I understand why people are for gun control, what I don't understand is how anyone could think its going to stop incidents like this from happening. It's going to create an ever bigger black market for guns and put even more power into the hands of criminals.

Do you think that's what's happened in countries with stricter gun laws? I was under the impression they have much lower gun crime rates than the US.

Salami · 07-22-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

That makes a lot of sense. "kill me and my family, I'll even hand over my gun, I just don't want this to escalate." Bam, you're dead without even trying to fight back because you just didn't want things to "escalate". That's just being too damn passive. Relying on your ability to beg for your life probably isnt the best idea.

Also I suppose there's the consequences of the law regarding to protecting oneself - keeping a gun to protect you from thieves is one thing, but there are cases in England like the farmer sent to prison for murder because he pushed a ladder away from his window a thief was using to climb into his house and killed him. You might think that's an isolated case of terrible judicial decision making, but it's not.

Here, to perhaps apologise to Jansz for generalising about his country earlier (sorry!) this is where I wouldn't mind a bit more of the US tendency to favour the "get the fuck off my land" over the fucking human rights of the thief. I really think that they ought to lose the protection of the law when they break it but they don't. However, I think this is a whole world removed from the issue of the man shooting innocent people.

Also picking up on Unknown Soldier's point about the comparison of UK/US political parties, I really would be inclined to agree with Jansz that our conservatives are nowhere near as right wing as the republican party. Especially the current coalition which is very liberal, they still put considerable financial support the state education and healthcare and many other aspects show a fairly left in tendency (in US terms).
The main difference between Labour and the Conservatives at the moment (don't misunderstand me - they both have innumerable faults) is that the Labour party favour spending as a mechanism to solve the country's deficit, the Conservatives favour austerity. If I might be allowed a small personal moan, why must the conservatives go about making life so much more miserable for us working classes and middle classes, axing childcare benefits marooning single mothers, making students pay through the nose for tuition fees and raise taxes for everyone except them, whilst the very wealthy remain barely affected because that's where the conservative support comes from.
I know it gets very boring hearing the same complaints from everyone, but dear god I'm fed up of this country's wealthy being appointed MPs when they reach a certain weight, or whatever name they've invented for that system.
I hate the fact that civil servants like the head of the city council get knighthoods for getting the job as a "pat on the back".

Unknown Soldier · 07-22-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

Also I suppose there's the consequences of the law regarding to protecting oneself - keeping a gun to protect you from thieves is one thing, but there are cases in England like the farmer sent to prison for murder because he pushed a ladder away from his window a thief was using to climb into his house and killed him. You might think that's an isolated case of terrible judicial decision making, but it's not.

Here, to perhaps apologise to Jansz for generalising about his country earlier (sorry!) this is where I wouldn't mind a bit more of the US tendency to favour the "get the fuck off my land" over the fucking human rights of the thief. I really think that they ought to lose the protection of the law when they break it but they don't. However, I think this is a whole world removed from the issue of the man shooting innocent people.

Also picking up on Unknown Soldier's point about the comparison of UK/US political parties, I really would be inclined to agree with Jansz that our conservatives are nowhere near as right wing as the republican party. Especially the current coalition which is very liberal, they still put considerable financial support the state education and healthcare and many other aspects show a fairly left in tendency (in US terms).
The main difference between Labour and the Conservatives at the moment (don't misunderstand me - they both have innumerable faults) is that the Labour party favour spending as a mechanism to solve the country's deficit, the Conservatives favour austerity. If I might be allowed a small personal moan, why must the conservatives go about making life so much more miserable for us working classes and middle classes, axing childcare benefits marooning single mothers, making students pay through the nose for tuition fees and raise taxes for everyone except them, whilst the very wealthy remain barely affected because that's where the conservative support comes from.
I know it gets very boring hearing the same complaints from everyone, but dear god I'm fed up of this country's wealthy being appointed MPs when they reach a certain weight, or whatever name they've invented for that system.
I hate the fact that civil servants like the head of the city council get knighthoods for getting the job as a "pat on the back".

Recent Conservative and Labour governments have been far more moderate in their policies and now adopt a more middle of the road approach in general. I was referring historically to how the Conservatives were right wing and how Labour were very left wing. Both parties had very distinctive power bases of support. In the 1980s, the gulf between the two parties was huge.

blastingas10 · 07-22-2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

Also I suppose there's the consequences of the law regarding to protecting oneself - keeping a gun to protect you from thieves is one thing, but there are cases in England like the farmer sent to prison for murder because he pushed a ladder away from his window a thief was using to climb into his house and killed him. You might think that's an isolated case of terrible judicial decision making, but it's not..

wow. That's stupid ****.

Reminds me of reading bob Dylan's chronicles where talks about how people were invading his home in Woodstock, climbing on the roof, breaking in. The local sheriff told him that if anyone fell off his roof they could sue him. How ridiculous is that?

I'm not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas you have the right to use deadly force to protect yourself from unwanted trespassers if you feel threatened. If someone breaks into my house at night and they have a weapon, bet your ass I'm shooting that bastard. It's simple, don't break into someone's house if you don't want to get shot like you rightfully should.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 07-22-2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

That makes a lot of sense. "kill me and my family, I'll even hand over my gun, I just don't want this to escalate." Bam, you're dead without even trying to fight back because you just didn't want things to "escalate". That's just being too damn passive. Relying on your ability to beg for your life probably isnt the best idea.

I understand why people are for gun control, what I don't understand is how anyone could think its going to stop incidents like this from happening. It's going to create an ever bigger black market for guns and put even more power into the hands of criminals.

Well I suppose I could go for your macho way of dealing with things but fortunately for me due to the advent of home insurance for fire, theft & flood that means I don't have to act like John McClane and get involved in running gun battles to keep my LCD TV.
And to be honest even if it wasn't available I don't think there is a single possession in my home that's more important than saving my own life.

midnight rain · 07-22-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger ?

Never really understood this reasoning.
If anything if someone breaks into your house and you put an extra gun into the mix I would have thought all that would do is escalate the tension & make things more unsafe, not protect you.

I agree completely.

Pro-gun owners also always bring up shop owners needing guns for armed robberies. Wouldn't it be safer for them if they didn't have guns, and the robbers knew they wouldn't? Then their guard wouldn't be up and they wouldn't be jumping the gun (no pun intended) and shooting the shop owner because he has a gun, or cause they even might think he has a gun (regardless of if he does or not). Point is most armed robbers are there to rob, not kill, and the last thing they want is a murder warrant out on them. If someone is actually out to kill, they will probably do it in a fashion where you wouldn't have time to react in self defense anyways.

So I've never ever subscribed to this self defense argument. To me, the second amendment is a dated amendment from a time where there was rightful paranoia that Americans had over the overbearing British. At that point, it was understandable they'd want to be prepared should a coup take place. Now that we have a systematic system of checks and balances it seems nigh impossible for someone to seize power and turn our country into a tyranny, regardless of if the citizens are armed or not.

Most of these points have probably already been made but I haven't bothered to go through the rest of the thread yet.