The Wild & Wacky World Of The Middle East

Unknown Soldier · 11-30-2012, 03:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Rjinn

That's what the current concern is about, civilians. Not Hamas.

Nearly every single conflict in that region, has given very little regard to civilians, so what's happening now is nothing out of the ordinary.

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Israelis are used to bombing Gaza without any consideration of civilians. They could of been a little more thoughtful, direct civilians to a safe place and then did their business. Using bombing is not the only option. What they are doing is pretty careless too.

When you want to keep military casualties to a minimum them bombing is ideal. I'm certainly not condoning it just stating the military perspective on these issues.

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We've been arguing on many different points from the beginning, for ages. If that doesn't count as a "broader sense" enough then I don't know what does.

I don't think that you been debating this from the broader perspective, but more from an "inside looking out" perspective as opposed to my "outside looking in" stance.

Face · 11-30-2012, 07:40 PM

BBC News - Israel to build 3,000 settler homes after UN vote

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Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials.

It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state.

The US said the expansion plan was counterproductive and would make it harder to resume peace talks.

Thoughts?

Essentially, the end goal for each side is to drive/wipe the other out. Peace will never happen.

The only reason Israel doesn't go all out is because of backlash from neutrals and allies. Palestinians don't simply because they can't.

Religion, race, birthright, revenge and grief is more than enough justification for either side to only accept "peace" and ceasefires as stepping stones to their next move.

Rjinn · 11-30-2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Nearly every single conflict in that region, has given very little regard to civilians, so what's happening now is nothing out of the ordinary.

Continually it's an issue that needs to be addressed. This concerns present reports and news about the civilians.

Israel civilians are not subject to this presently.

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When you want to keep military casualties to a minimum them bombing is ideal. I'm certainly not condoning it just stating the military perspective on these issues.

It's always been that way. It's a "No regards for anybody else but themselves win" move. That's the reason no one should condone or consider bombing whether it's a military strategy or not. Especially since our present day usually concerns civilian safety worldwide.

It does come from both ends. While Hamas tend to be careless with their strategy, it's why Palestinians are pretty much in a worse position than the Israelis.

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I don't think that you been debating this from the broader perspective, but more from an "inside looking out" perspective as opposed to my "outside looking in" stance.

General statements about a subject don't really tell you much. Usually a debate refines certain points. But ok, that's cool.

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Thoughts?

Essentially, the end goal for each side is to drive/wipe the other out. Peace will never happen.

The only reason Israel doesn't go all out is because of backlash from neutrals and allies. Palestinians don't simply because they can't.

Religion, race, birthright, revenge and grief is more than enough justification for either side to only accept "peace" and ceasefires as stepping stones to their next move.

At least the idea now is to set up negotiations. Abass has been pushing it for some time, except Hamas are getting in the way. Now he's trying to reconcile with them, which may be positive thing from this outcome.

Generally most countries want to establish two states. One for Palestine and Israel. This was a harsh reminder that it's not going to be the case, being a "punishment" from Israel. Now the idea is completely dented and Israel have just isolated themselves from support. This might help both sides into a peace treaty. So "destroying each other" isn't really case. The president and Hamas have different plans, so the only way this can happen is to consolidate with each other. The president of Israel and the military are opposed to negotiations right now.

At least Palestinians are supported by the U.S. and UN with this decision.

The Batlord · 12-01-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn

It's always been that way. It's a "No regards for anybody else but themselves win" move. That's the reason no one should condone or consider bombing whether it's a military strategy or not. Especially since our present day usually concerns civilian safety worldwide.

Well, it's pretty ludicrous to ask somebody to put their friends in harm's way when they could just as easily not do so, even if it puts someone else's friends at risk instead. Which isn't an argument for bombing civilians so much as an argument against war in general. But still, getting mad at the military for considering their lives and the lives of their own soldiers before the lives of "the enemy" is a bit unreasonable. Get mad at the politicians who would rather go to war on a whim when it's politically expedient.

Rjinn · 12-01-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Well, it's pretty ludicrous to ask somebody to put their friends in harm's way when they could just as easily not do so, even if it puts someone else's friends at risk instead. Which isn't an argument for bombing civilians so much as an argument against war in general. But still, getting mad at the military for considering their lives and the lives of their own soldiers before the lives of "the enemy" is a bit unreasonable. Get mad at the politicians who would rather go to war on a whim when it's politically expedient.

That's a good point. Usually politicians are responsible anyway for military commands.

I think in this case though, Israeli citizens aren't really at risk as much. Hamas' bases considering their locations (the present bombing from the city and condensed environment) places Palestinians at a much higher risk, and I really do think it's a big concern. Considering the usual strategy of Hamas is bombing, I don't really see how casualties would be much different with deployed raids. They'd be dispersed enough to make it inaccurate.

TheBig3 · 12-05-2012, 09:34 PM

The History of the Middle East Conflict in 11 Minutes - YouTube

hip hop bunny hop · 12-07-2012, 09:04 AM

Hey guys,

I just got this letter from some of them there ay-rabs. They say thanks, it's really heart warming you care enough to put riled up posts on the webs. Even if you do nothing which could actually help them out, it's vitally important - they say - that you continue with the pointless, moralistic posturing. These here ay-rabs recognize it's the 21st century & we support people by liking the relevant posts on facebook.

**Janszoon** · 12-07-2012, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

Hey guys,

I just got this letter from some of them there ay-rabs. They say thanks, it's really heart warming you care enough to put riled up posts on the webs. Even if you do nothing which could actually help them out, it's vitally important - they say - that you continue with the pointless, moralistic posturing. These here ay-rabs recognize it's the 21st century & we support people by liking the relevant posts on facebook.

^Makes statement on internet about how internet statements are pointless. Meta-irony in full effect.

hip hop bunny hop · 12-07-2012, 09:16 AM

^^^ but it's consistent with my stance on the ****hole

**Janszoon** · 12-07-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

^^^ but it's consistent with my stance on the ****hole

^Meta-irony continues unabated.

12-05-2012, 09:34 PM	#96 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	The History of the Middle East Conflict in 11 Minutes - YouTube __________________ I've moved to a new address

12-07-2012, 09:04 AM	#97 (permalink)
hip hop bunny hop Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,381	Hey guys, I just got this letter from some of them there ay-rabs. They say thanks, it's really heart warming you care enough to put riled up posts on the webs. Even if you do nothing which could actually help them out, it's vitally important - they say - that you continue with the pointless, moralistic posturing. These here ay-rabs recognize it's the 21st century & we support people by liking the relevant posts on facebook. __________________ Have mercy on the poor.

12-07-2012, 09:16 AM	#99 (permalink)
hip hop bunny hop Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,381	^^^ but it's consistent with my stance on the ****hole __________________ Have mercy on the poor.