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-   -   The Wild & Wacky World Of The Middle East (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/66126-wild-wacky-world-middle-east.html)

Newkie 11-25-2012 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1253770)
Well, all their neighbours will definitely end up "scrambled".

Aye aye!

Indeed. The British guy in that video reminds me of about 60% of the people in a political I did in Uni and also reminds me of why I dropped it. It's actually a half decent discussion, but I hate people who can't at least see two sides of a coin. It's the same worldview I had when I was about 12.

Unknown Soldier 11-25-2012 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1253770)
Well, all their neighbours will definitely end up "scrambled".

Aye aye!

Maybe the Arabs can poach a few victories!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie (Post 1253771)
Indeed. The British guy in that video reminds me of about 60% of the people in a political I did in Uni and also reminds me of why I dropped it. It's actually a half decent discussion, but I hate people who can't at least see two sides of a coin. It's the same worldview I had when I was about 12.

Yep he's a typical nobhead from uni that has tunnel vision.

Newkie 11-25-2012 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1253773)
Maybe the Arabs can poach a few victories!

Enough with the egg and soldiers routine already.

Face 11-25-2012 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1253773)
Maybe the Arabs can poach a few victories!

I think everyone involved just needs to get laid.

Quote:

Yep he's a typical nobhead from uni that has tunnel vision.
It's more of a backlash from the view we're initially presented with that Israel is the innocent victim suffering against malicious terrorists to the one with the larger military force continuing to take land. But then the pendulum swings too far the other way and suddenly they're thirsty for the blood of babies against the completely innocent palestinians.

Rjinn 11-25-2012 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1253741)
The best point of the whole interview that was only briefly touched upon, is that Hamas had placed their military assets in residential locations, so near where children are based.

I disagree. I think the best point of the story is that the president gave 99.1% of the land to the Israelis.

Quote:

Hamas knew what they were doing here and knew would lead to two distinct possibilties 1) Placing these military installations in a residential attack to avoid attack or 2) Placing these military installations in a residential attack to encourage an attack and then when civilian casualties mounted up, they automatically would grab sympathy. Hamas don't give a shit about civilian casualties, they're just means to an end.
More excuses for the Isrealis? I think so. It doesn't give them the right to kill innoccent civilians. Israel doesn't give a **** about Palestinians either.

Gaza is crowded full of residential areas. They couldn't place it away even if they wanted to, nor do they have many spots to place them.

You know uh, I couldn't even assume what their intentions are. I don't know how you can devise plans out of the blue. Please substantiate with some sort of evidence, otherwise there is no point going on with assumptions.

Hitch 11-25-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1253741)
What's the solution? Dismantling the state of Isreal and allowing their people to emigrate to countries where they have family (but not all have family abroad) that would of course bring stability to the area but of course is almost impossible to do. Their only option is to continue securing their own state from agressive neighbours which they've been doing for decades now and as they say, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs!

Oh, no, another diaspora wont happen. Israel is most definitely here to stay (although you have to give them credit for finding one of the very few areas in the region without oil!). The solution broadly agreeable is 2 states based on the 1967 borders. Just that Israel haven't helped at all with the settlers in the west bank.

What I meant was in a hypothetical situation where the expanded territories are given back, the Palestinians are provided with a state of their own with Hamas still continuing their "social services", the mullahs in Iran are still in power, their personal agents in Lebanon, Hezbollah, still thereabouts and the frauds from the muslim brotherhood in Egypt - somehow, I don't think the region will be incident free. They may hate each other and that's fine as long as they mind their own business. Add in a possibly nuclear Iran and the Saudis might find common cause with Israel after all! Interesting times...

Unknown Soldier 11-25-2012 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1253805)
I disagree. I think the best point of the story is that the president gave 99.1% of the land to the Israelis.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but if it's land under Palestinian and Hamas authority then it's far more than 1% and more like 30%!

Quote:

More excuses for the Isrealis? I think so. It doesn't give them the right to kill innoccent civilians. Israel doesn't give a **** about Palestinians either.
It's not more excuses for the Isrealis, I've more or less made it clear that I don't much care for either side in the conflict. The only sad thing is that innocents as always take the brunt of the pain and suffering.

Quote:

Gaza is crowded full of residential areas. They couldn't place it away even if they wanted to, nor do they have many spots to place them.
When you want a firework display at home, you normally do it in your garden and away from small children and flammables. It you don't have a big enough garden then you go and do it somewhere else more suitable, BUT you don't set the display up in your own house!

There was no reason for Hamas to attack Isreal from their own territory, they could've done it from other regions and other locations, Isreal is used to being attacked from outside territories. Hamas knew exactly what they were doing when they started their attacks.

Quote:

You know uh, I couldn't even assume what their intentions are. I don't know how you can devise plans out of the blue. Please substantiate with some sort of evidence, otherwise there is no point going on with assumptions.
If I was going to prepare an academic paper then I would substantiate my assumptions without a shadow of a doubt, in fact nearly anything can be substantiated in some way or another, it just takes time to fish the stuff out. But this is a banter forum based around a decent level of debate there's usually no real need. But what I will say, that if you read between the lines, it's fairly obvious that Hamas are acting under the blessing and support of Iran who are pushing for a much wider conflict in the region, this is my opinion only of course but I know this is easy to substantiate. Hamas cannot compete with Isreal, they need a wider support base and Iran is that support base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch (Post 1253806)
Oh, no, another diaspora wont happen. Israel is most definitely here to stay (although you have to give them credit for finding one of the very few areas in the region without oil!). The solution broadly agreeable is 2 states based on the 1967 borders. Just that Israel haven't helped at all with the settlers in the west bank.

What I meant was in a hypothetical situation where the expanded territories are given back, the Palestinians are provided with a state of their own with Hamas still continuing their "social services", the mullahs in Iran are still in power, their personal agents in Lebanon, Hezbollah, still thereabouts and the frauds from the muslim brotherhood in Egypt - somehow, I don't think the region will be incident free. They may hate each other and that's fine as long as they mind their own business. Add in a possibly nuclear Iran and the Saudis might find common cause with Israel after all! Interesting times...

Glad to see that someone seems to share my view and is looking at the conflict in a much broader sense.

Rjinn 11-25-2012 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1253839)
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but if it's land under Palestinian and Hamas authority then it's far more than 1% and more like 30%!

It was sarcasm. Anyway, the 30% Israel pretty much have a lot of control over.

Quote:

It's not more excuses for the Isrealis, I've more or less made it clear that I don't much care for either side in the conflict. The only sad thing is that innocents as always take the brunt of the pain and suffering.
That's what the current concern is about, civilians. Not Hamas.

Quote:

When you want a firework display at home, you normally do it in your garden and away from small children and flammables. It you don't have a big enough garden then you go and do it somewhere else more suitable, BUT you don't set the display up in your own house!
You could easily say that Hamas were being careless, not devising plans in regards to their location.

Quote:

There was no reason for Hamas to attack Isreal from their own territory, they could've done it from other regions and other locations, Isreal is used to being attacked from outside territories.Hamas knew exactly what they were doing when they started their attacks.
Israelis knew what they were doing too.

Israelis are used to bombing Gaza without any consideration of civilians. They could of been a little more thoughtful, direct civilians to a safe place and then did their business. Using bombing is not the only option. What they are doing is pretty careless too.

Quote:

If I was going to prepare an academic paper then I would substantiate my assumptions without a shadow of a doubt, in fact nearly anything can be substantiated in some way or another, it just takes time to fish the stuff out. But this is a banter forum based around a decent level of debate there's usually no real need. But what I will say, that if you read between the lines, it's fairly obvious that Hamas are acting under the blessing and support of Iran who are pushing for a much wider conflict in the region, this is my opinion only of course but I know this is easy to substantiate. Hamas cannot compete with Isreal, they need a wider support base and Iran is that support base.
All I was pointing out is there was no indication of intentions regarding locations. It really has nothing to do with what's practically going on. I'm trying to keep on what's actually happening.

Of course they're always going to be conflicted. The colonising has been progressively going on since the beginning of time.

Quote:

Glad to see that someone seems to share my view and is looking at the conflict in a much broader sense.
We've been arguing on many different points from the beginning, for ages. If that doesn't count as a "broader sense" enough then I don't know what does.

Trollheart 11-29-2012 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1253758)
Coming up: The fairytale of evolution!

Hello everyone! Today we're going to be discussing the obviously inconclusive science of evolution, where darwinists claim your great grandaddies are pond scum! Today with us we have a creation scientist, a christian surgeon and a stoner atheist.



They have a word for that: bias.

Why would a fish be involved, and what would his religion have to do with ... oh wait, I thought that said Christian sturgeon! :laughing:

PoorOldPo 11-29-2012 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnels (Post 1251833)
I don't have a TV or politically charged friends nor did the OP elaborate nor have any of the posts specifically said what is going on, so may I ask wtf is this all about?

I didn't make the thread. A moderator took a post I made in some thread and made it a thread. I had no idea, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1255660)
Why would a fish be involved, and what would his religion have to do with ... oh wait, I thought that said Christian sturgeon! :laughing:




Christian Sturgeon? Whats that got to do with fish?

Unknown Soldier 11-30-2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1253902)
That's what the current concern is about, civilians. Not Hamas.

Nearly every single conflict in that region, has given very little regard to civilians, so what's happening now is nothing out of the ordinary.

Quote:

Israelis are used to bombing Gaza without any consideration of civilians. They could of been a little more thoughtful, direct civilians to a safe place and then did their business. Using bombing is not the only option. What they are doing is pretty careless too.
When you want to keep military casualties to a minimum them bombing is ideal. I'm certainly not condoning it just stating the military perspective on these issues.

Quote:

We've been arguing on many different points from the beginning, for ages. If that doesn't count as a "broader sense" enough then I don't know what does.
I don't think that you been debating this from the broader perspective, but more from an "inside looking out" perspective as opposed to my "outside looking in" stance.

Face 11-30-2012 07:40 PM

BBC News - Israel to build 3,000 settler homes after UN vote

Quote:

Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials.

It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state.

The US said the expansion plan was counterproductive and would make it harder to resume peace talks.
Thoughts?

Essentially, the end goal for each side is to drive/wipe the other out. Peace will never happen.

The only reason Israel doesn't go all out is because of backlash from neutrals and allies. Palestinians don't simply because they can't.

Religion, race, birthright, revenge and grief is more than enough justification for either side to only accept "peace" and ceasefires as stepping stones to their next move.

Rjinn 11-30-2012 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1256002)
Nearly every single conflict in that region, has given very little regard to civilians, so what's happening now is nothing out of the ordinary.

Continually it's an issue that needs to be addressed. This concerns present reports and news about the civilians.

Israel civilians are not subject to this presently.

Quote:

When you want to keep military casualties to a minimum them bombing is ideal. I'm certainly not condoning it just stating the military perspective on these issues.
It's always been that way. It's a "No regards for anybody else but themselves win" move. That's the reason no one should condone or consider bombing whether it's a military strategy or not. Especially since our present day usually concerns civilian safety worldwide.

It does come from both ends. While Hamas tend to be careless with their strategy, it's why Palestinians are pretty much in a worse position than the Israelis.

Quote:

I don't think that you been debating this from the broader perspective, but more from an "inside looking out" perspective as opposed to my "outside looking in" stance.
General statements about a subject don't really tell you much. Usually a debate refines certain points. But ok, that's cool.

Quote:

Thoughts?

Essentially, the end goal for each side is to drive/wipe the other out. Peace will never happen.

The only reason Israel doesn't go all out is because of backlash from neutrals and allies. Palestinians don't simply because they can't.

Religion, race, birthright, revenge and grief is more than enough justification for either side to only accept "peace" and ceasefires as stepping stones to their next move.
At least the idea now is to set up negotiations. Abass has been pushing it for some time, except Hamas are getting in the way. Now he's trying to reconcile with them, which may be positive thing from this outcome.

Generally most countries want to establish two states. One for Palestine and Israel. This was a harsh reminder that it's not going to be the case, being a "punishment" from Israel. Now the idea is completely dented and Israel have just isolated themselves from support. This might help both sides into a peace treaty. So "destroying each other" isn't really case. The president and Hamas have different plans, so the only way this can happen is to consolidate with each other. The president of Israel and the military are opposed to negotiations right now.

At least Palestinians are supported by the U.S. and UN with this decision.

The Batlord 12-01-2012 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1256101)
It's always been that way. It's a "No regards for anybody else but themselves win" move. That's the reason no one should condone or consider bombing whether it's a military strategy or not. Especially since our present day usually concerns civilian safety worldwide.

Well, it's pretty ludicrous to ask somebody to put their friends in harm's way when they could just as easily not do so, even if it puts someone else's friends at risk instead. Which isn't an argument for bombing civilians so much as an argument against war in general. But still, getting mad at the military for considering their lives and the lives of their own soldiers before the lives of "the enemy" is a bit unreasonable. Get mad at the politicians who would rather go to war on a whim when it's politically expedient.

Rjinn 12-01-2012 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1256185)
Well, it's pretty ludicrous to ask somebody to put their friends in harm's way when they could just as easily not do so, even if it puts someone else's friends at risk instead. Which isn't an argument for bombing civilians so much as an argument against war in general. But still, getting mad at the military for considering their lives and the lives of their own soldiers before the lives of "the enemy" is a bit unreasonable. Get mad at the politicians who would rather go to war on a whim when it's politically expedient.

That's a good point. Usually politicians are responsible anyway for military commands.

I think in this case though, Israeli citizens aren't really at risk as much. Hamas' bases considering their locations (the present bombing from the city and condensed environment) places Palestinians at a much higher risk, and I really do think it's a big concern. Considering the usual strategy of Hamas is bombing, I don't really see how casualties would be much different with deployed raids. They'd be dispersed enough to make it inaccurate.

TheBig3 12-05-2012 09:34 PM


The History of the Middle East Conflict in 11 Minutes - YouTube

hip hop bunny hop 12-07-2012 09:04 AM

Hey guys,

I just got this letter from some of them there ay-rabs. They say thanks, it's really heart warming you care enough to put riled up posts on the webs. Even if you do nothing which could actually help them out, it's vitally important - they say - that you continue with the pointless, moralistic posturing. These here ay-rabs recognize it's the 21st century & we support people by liking the relevant posts on facebook.

Janszoon 12-07-2012 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop (Post 1259093)
Hey guys,

I just got this letter from some of them there ay-rabs. They say thanks, it's really heart warming you care enough to put riled up posts on the webs. Even if you do nothing which could actually help them out, it's vitally important - they say - that you continue with the pointless, moralistic posturing. These here ay-rabs recognize it's the 21st century & we support people by liking the relevant posts on facebook.

^Makes statement on internet about how internet statements are pointless. Meta-irony in full effect.

hip hop bunny hop 12-07-2012 09:16 AM

^^^ but it's consistent with my stance on the ****hole

Janszoon 12-07-2012 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop (Post 1259101)
^^^ but it's consistent with my stance on the ****hole

^Meta-irony continues unabated.

hip hop bunny hop 12-07-2012 09:33 AM

^^^ will it ever end?

Janszoon 12-07-2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop (Post 1259118)
^^^ will it ever end?

http://www.ivolunteer.org/wp-content...up-to-you1.jpg

hip hop bunny hop 12-07-2012 09:41 AM

^^^ it best continue then

Face 12-07-2012 11:24 AM

The israelis will never leave, the palestinians will never accept them being there.

The only way they'll reconcile their differences is by having to team up against alien invaders. As in space aliens.

midnight rain 12-07-2012 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1259252)
The israelis will never leave, the palestinians will never accept them being there.

The only way they'll reconcile their differences is by having to team up against alien invaders. As in space aliens.

Hopefully the discovery of said aliens would put to death any of the stupid religious theories that half these wars are predicated on.

Face 12-07-2012 12:03 PM

Religion is just one of the many excuses/reasons for war, remove it and something else replaces it.

Land, resources, political idealism, power, race, profit, politics....

midnight rain 12-07-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1259297)
Religion is just one of the many excuses/reasons for war, remove it and something else replaces it.

Land, resources, political idealism, power, race, profit, politics....

True, but you wouldn't have any of these "Die for Allah!" types

The Batlord 12-08-2012 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1259300)
True, but you wouldn't have any of these "Die for Allah!" types

The hell you wouldn't. If they didn't just incorporate the aliens into their pre-existing religion and claim that it had always allowed for them, they'd just make up some new cult claiming that the aliens were here to bring the Apocalypse to humanity or were here to bring the message of God to humanity. It'll never end.

Unknown Soldier 12-10-2012 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1256101)
Continually it's an issue that needs to be addressed. This concerns present reports and news about the civilians.
Israel civilians are not subject to this presently.

Why does it need to be addressed? It's a conflict and there are usually always more civilian casualties than military, especially when conflicts take place in built up regions. This region is well known for civilians being actively involved in the conflict and taking part in it, they don't usually like to try and stay safe at home.

Quote:

It's always been that way. It's a "No regards for anybody else but themselves win" move. That's the reason no one should condone or consider bombing whether it's a military strategy or not. Especially since our present day usually concerns civilian safety worldwide.

It does come from both ends. While Hamas tend to be careless with their strategy, it's why Palestinians are pretty much in a worse position than the Israelis.
When military casualties start mounting up, the war starts to become less popular back home (Vietnam and Afghanistan-Russia were perfect examples of this) so the Isrealis are following on from the tried and tested system of minimising their own casualties, which therefore means bombing. If Hamas could do this as effectively then they would as well.


Quote:

Generally most countries want to establish two states. One for Palestine and Israel. This was a harsh reminder that it's not going to be the case, being a "punishment" from Israel. Now the idea is completely dented and Israel have just isolated themselves from support. This might help both sides into a peace treaty. So "destroying each other" isn't really case. The president and Hamas have different plans, so the only way this can happen is to consolidate with each other. The president of Israel and the military are opposed to negotiations right now.

At least Palestinians are supported by the U.S. and UN with this decision.
They want to establish two states as they know the two sides could never live together in peace and on equal terms. We're lucky that the eyes of the world are yet again involved and any middle-eastern conflict is high profile. Because if it wasn't, I'm certain those with the biggest weapons would be waging a true campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Neapolitan 12-11-2012 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face (Post 1259252)
The israelis will never leave, the palestinians will never accept them being there.

The only way they'll reconcile their differences is by having to team up against alien invaders. As in space aliens.

You appear to be a real problem solver.

Face 12-11-2012 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 1261208)
You appear to be a real problem solver.

True dat.


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