The Wild & Wacky World Of The Middle East
 

F u c k



Israel

When you're getting bombed it's normal to fight back.

When a poor country is taken over destroying villages and forcing people to leave their homes it's normal to fight back.

What exactly are you referring to here, that's quite a general statement?

I assumed you were talking about the suicide bombers, right?

No not at all, sucide bombers are the worst possible thing I can imagine in so-called warfare or terrorist acts.

My original comment was in response to Po who said "**** Isreal" and I responded that they were justified in responding to the attacks that had been made on them.

Yes, I'm giving you the other side of the story. The acts are in response to overtaking territories by plundering home towns and cleansing them out into refugee camps so their own citizens can settle in. They resort to suicide bombing having no or very little way of fighting back considering the lack of military power. It's incredibly tragic.

I don't condone any of these acts, but it's absolute bullcrap that the Palestinians here are considered the only terrorists, while the Israelis can be just as terrorising if not more.

Precision targetting on children playing football isn't the answer, its cowardly. And then kill the two kids that run over to help the other dying child. What a heroic way to retaliate. The Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves.

Heroism hasn't much to do with this, it's like most wars and rules are seldom followed. If the Palestinians had the powerful weapons, then they would be doing the same to the Isrealis it's as simple as that.

Wars don't justify killing innocent children for no dangerous reason especially in a country with barely any military power, no matter what the probability is. You can't just assume situations. It is what it is because of the circumstances. Suicide bombing is a twisted way of sending a message about frustration and hopelessness in this case. That's really the biggest issue with the Palestinians.

The Israelis are the Irish of the Middle East.

The point I was making, is that war has no rules in actual practice, making children fair game for being slaughtered as is any other civilian regardless of age. At times the perpetrators are brought to justice, but that's not always case especially when those perpetrators are on the winning side.

The Palestinians are actively seeking to enlarge the conflict, as they know that's their biggest hope of success, dead children and suicide bombers are a way to do this. Practically all of the middle east hates Isreal and they know by just pushing things further, the whole middle east could yet again unite behind them, which of course would mean war.

But the Irish are liked:laughing:

A lot of Palestinians are locked up in Gaza after the Israeli government decided to take over the borders. I think it's a bit ignorant to generalise their intentions considering the situation especially if it's about freedom. I really don't see how they're just trying to enlarge the conflict for success. They're protesting for a reason.

I don't agree with the suicide bombers, but I understand their struggle.

Most Middle Eastern states don't care enough to take action, or else they would have come to aid by now. Also Israel and Egypt have a peace treaty, and even though there are disagreements with how the government are handling military action recently, they don't desire to break it.

Well Gaza was actually captured as the spoils of war in 1967 after Isreal had been invaded and beat the invaders, it was then given to the Palestinians and quickly became controlled by Hamas. Depending on your point of view Hamas are a terrorist organization and are actively involved in a conflict with Isreal, so when Isreal is being attacked by Hamas from the territory of Gaza, Isreal really didn't have much of a choice but to retaliate.

Oh they do care, they've lost so much prestige over the years after finishing second best to the Isrealis in military conflicts, the only difference now is that Iran would need to be the main organizer of anti-Isreali forces, as the other major powers in Egypt won't provoke another war (they would if they could) and Syria is engaged in its own domestic war and Iraq won't work with Iran.

Hamas know that their only chance of success is to provoke this into a much wider conflict, that is how an underdog seeks to win, history is littered with such examples.

I think it terms of popular opinion you'd definitely have to say that they care, Egypt being the prime example. Calls have often been made for intervention from a grassroots level and are increasing now that Mubarak is out and the Muslim Brotherhood are in.

Ever since the Six Day War in 1967 the Israeli's have been in the ascendancy and the gap in military technology/power has only widened between Israel and it's neighbours since. They couldn't even make a "war" of it even if they wished for it..

I'd agree with all that, which is why I've stated the importance of Iran in any anti-Isreali conflict.

Yeah true, even then though if Iran got involved you can bet the EU and the US would throw off any pretence of neutrality. I think it would take the involvement of Turkey as well as they're probably the most capable of competing with Israel militarily, but they won't get involved unless Israel seriously "goes to town" on the middle east, or endangers its own citizens.

But Turkey would never be an aggressor, there's not the same "empathy" for Palestinians there, not much love lost between the Turks and Arabs in general, and any aggression on Turkey's part would shut the door to entering the E.U.

Now we're hitting on the crux of the situation the wider conflict. Isreal would immediately be supported by the US and the UK would follow suit. The EU's other big players Germany and France might not get involved, enabling some of the EU's lesser lights yet again to follow the UK as with what happened in the Iraq conflict. Turkey I'm certain would side with Isreal and they are NATO members and want to be EU members. The other side of the coin would see a pro Arab league fronted by non-arabs in Iran and automatically backed by Russia.

This is all unlikely to happen to this degree, but it can't be ruled out, but whatever happend Isreal will continue to call the shots in their own backyard and I think a show-down betweeen Isreal and Iran is still on the cards.

Who was the smart mod that started this thread? They must be psychic as I was thinking that this topic needed its own thread here.

Middle Eastern conflicts bore the shit out of me so I moved it to this forum where I hardly post so I didn't have to see it in the your day thread every 5 minutes.

You're welcome.

You think Turkey would side with Israel? I've never really thought about it that way, I agree that if Iran was the "aggressor" and the UK became it would probably side strategically with NATO because any other course would be ridiculous. But if Israel "started" another conflict which Iran then became involved in, I'm not so sure Turkey would align with Israel, I think they'd just stay neutral.

From a Machiavellian viewpoint, the current status quo probably suits Turkey fine. No risk of conflict with any Arab states as they are obsessed with Israel, and visa versa, and whilst Israel ploughs money into it's military Turkey is able to develop its military and economy at a steady pace.


Like you said though, you can't rule out a conflict, but I really don't think anything will happen any time soon.

Honesty, how refreshing :laughing:

Not all Palestians are Hamas.

Also Hamas were originally a resistant movement and weren't formed as a terrorist group. They were founded to liberate Palestine and establish Arab states. They later were willing to collaborate with Israel to end the feud. The brutal clash was a response of the accused attempt to assassinate their prime minister. Not only did they launch rockets to the Israeli post, but also to the Egyptian post as well. It was about the borders, not just to kill Israelis. Later the Israelis closed borders to deny aid, which is when they managed smuggling money to finance schools and hospitals. Can you see how it's a continual struggle?

Unless you have evidence, there isn't any sign or alert to present scheming. Most of them haven't lifted a finger nor do they have to collaborate with each other to send aid to Palestine on their own.

Again, I don't agree with the war in general. My original point was the Israelis aren't the only ones here who had a right to retaliate. They've caused a fair share of bull**** as well.

They've been trying to blow the **** out of each other for 1000s of years. I don't really have any sympathy for any side.

Since you're in such a helpful mood, I need two journal entries to be approved.

Turkey if forced to choose would side with the west but their neutral stance would still aid the west by providing access to military bases etc.

I never stated that Palestinians were Hamas, just that Hamas are based in Gaza meaning that they will have strong support from there.

Any resistant movement formed in the context of this debate, often has an active military wing and that military wing usually becomes the most dominant element.

They may well have had noble intentions for Palestinians, but basically they just used their Sunni Islamic ideals to unite Sunnis against Isreal. I doubt they even care for the welfare of their fellow Palestinians and like most terrorist organizations are just in it, for what they can get out of it.

The attacking Egypt, is just another example of the division that constantly divdes the Arab states.

No current evidence is needed, the hatred of Isreal is second-nature. If they knew that there was any real chance of eliminating the state of Isreal, then they would jump in with both feet. Luckily Isreal has the power and the backing to prevent them from being wiped out.

Yeah, true enough. I was definitely more actively interested in it as a kid, now it's just one of those reoccurring things that I can't really avoid hearing about, so it always seems to come up in conversation.

@ Urban-Journal entries updated, you're a star.

That wasn't Urban. :pimp:

Personally I find it fascinating, how they can keep knocking seven buckets of **** out of each other, learn nothing and then still get up and repeat the process all over again.

F*** Urban then, you're the star.

Well, at the risk of sounding like a philosophical **** is the rest of the world much different? Cyclical nature of humanity and all that.

Oh, Mr. Morsi definitely does. He has tried to appeal to the US, UN, European Union and Arab League to stop the aggression.

Calls have been made now because not enough has been done. The Muslim Brotherhood are actually blaming Arabs states for "watching the shed of Palestinian blood without moving a muscle." I completely agree with that.

Not enough done by the West? If so I definitely agree with you. As for the Arab states, i'm not really sure what they could do on a practical level. Military involvement is out of the question. If you enter into diplomacy, neither side will budge. If you try appeasement, or cave in to what would be the bulk of Israel's demands, you open yourself to domestic criticism and unrest.

They were definitely guilty of it long before now though.

Honestly I don't really get where all this assumed "hatred" is coming from. Their desire is to stop aggression towards Palestinians, not to go all Guerrilla on their ass. You're really just implying that the Arabs are uncivilised people.

Quite simple really, if you were chucked out of your home and then the new person living there dictated what was what to you, wouldn't you feel aggrieved? And then after several attempts to regain what was yours failed, wouldn't the hatred start boiling up inside you to take back what was yours?

The solution is now of course to divide that house up, so you live on one floor and the other floor goes to the other person. Or you share the house like civilized people, but they can't seem to do the second option.

They wash more often than me, so they can't be that uncivilized.

:laughing:

But yeah, while the Hamas Covenant may not be the most popular view i think hate is a pretty appropriate term. Also entirely understandable.

You almost sounded sympathetic there. ;)

You know, you can hate something and try take back what is yours without killing someone, right?

That doesn't explain why "all Arabs hate Israelis so they want to start a war."

So you can just stomp into somebody's house, take over, order them to share it with you and say "Oh well he won't give it back so ok."

Heh...

The Hamas covenant basically outlines the obliteration of the state of Isreal, whilst stating that it is tolerant of other religions and peoples, as long as they don't interfere with Hamas ambitions, sounds pretty dictatorial to me.

I'm always sympathetic.

You can in most democratic systems with laws firmly in place. But where that doesn't exist in your favour, you have to resort to other methods which may or may not involve using violence.

I'm sure you're fully aware of the conflict of hate that started in biblical times and this culture of hatred has been passed down generation after generation, it doesn't exist of course in all Arabs, only those that have been directly affected by Isreal, through either persecution or just being on the losing side in one of the numerous conflicts. I'm sure an average person in say Saudi Arabia doesn't have a deep-rooted hatred of Isreal, whilst somebody from the Lebanon is far more likely to. There is also the binding link of Islam to unite them against the common enemy as well.

There's no need to stomp in, they already share the same house. The problem is, the Isrealis have the run of the house, whilst the Palestinians live in the toilet and the shed.

Sure, isn't that what happened in both the American continents, Australia, New Zealand, countless other colonies and then depending on how far you want to go back, Britain and virtually all of Europe themselves?