What pisses me off most about science

FRED HALE SR. · 02-28-2013, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Now you're just not even trying to see my point.

No I actually I did look at your point. I'm not ignoring what you're saying and theres clearly some merit to how evolution has shaped our beliefs. I just disagree with the notion that their is motive to every nice thing people do for one another. I'm not denying that it happens, i'm just saying there isn't always a motive to everything and or practiced thought.

Bane of your existence · 02-28-2013, 11:10 AM

All you are doing is summing up the reasons that we act the way we act.
Sometimes you're doing on the special level, but when it serves your argument you're doing it on an individual basis. Sometimes you're saying we act a way because it "feels good." Sometimes it's because evolution said we should.

I don't get what you mean by "credit." On an individual basis you don't think a man acting despite his interests is applaudable? You realize that person makes a decision, right?

Edit: that was to batlord.

**Janszoon** · 02-28-2013, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

Eh? Isn't a naturalistic worldview at odds with the entire notion of fairness?

The entire notion? No.

duga · 02-28-2013, 11:16 AM

Tuna, you are the perfect example of someone who hasn't thought deeply enough about science and the laws of the universe. One of the key arguments religious people make is that by knowing so much about how everything works, it kills the mystery and there can be no joy in life. I've been a student of science for almost 10 years now and all I can say is it has only ENHANCED the mystery of life. The more we learn for sure the more we realize we DON'T know. Can human action be boiled down to the simplistic elements you are talking about? Sure. But that doesn't mean there is still a bigger picture that we have barely yet to perceive.

I'm highly of the opinion that the purpose of life is to keep learning. Once you stop learning new things, you stagnate and you become one of those sad mindless robot-people. Your actions and choices can all be boiled down to human nature but the point is to LEARN from those choices and actions. You are born without limbs? You have different lessons to learn than those who do. But someone who has limbs may have a completely different outlook on life and find their existence just as hard. Pain and suffering is relative. Even if you are still of the view that we live in a selfish world, you can surely still agree that we should do what we can to ensure the survival of the human race? After all, that's the most basic instinct ingrained in any living organism: survival. And altruism and empathy help ensure our survival.

And now I get to use - once again - my favorite quote of all time. This comes from the man Carl Sagan: "We are all made of star stuff and we are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."

So keep learning. And always remember there is way more to life than you can possibly comprehend. Thinking you can boil all our actions down to such base impulses is pure arrogance.

The Batlord · 02-28-2013, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane of your existence

All you are doing is summing up the reasons that we act the way we act.
Sometimes you're doing on the special level, but when it serves your argument you're doing it on an individual basis. Sometimes you're saying we act a way because it "feels good." Sometimes it's because evolution said we should.

What are you talking about? A species has it's own best interest. An individual does as well. Those often intersect, but not always. It's like your body. All your cells are joined together for their own benefit. Yet if you get hypothermia blood ceases to flow to your less vital body parts in order to preserve your more vitals body parts and protect the entire organism (I know that's an oversimplification, but work with me). Which is the same concept of a soldier throwing himself over a grenade. Which seems to me is because if one's own self interest can't be subverted to serve the best interest of the collective then the whole concept of morality would fall apart when it became strained.

And "feeling good" is evolution's way of giving you an incentive to do something. You might not be here if sex didn't feel good after all. Since my mother never intended to have a kid, then I certainly wouldn't.

Quote:

I don't get what you mean by "credit." On an individual basis you don't think a man acting despite his interests is applaudable? You realize that person makes a decision, right?

I don't believe in decisions because I don't believe in free will. In a world where everything is potentially predictable by mathematics (the angle of a bouncing ball, the trajectory of a meteor, the actions of a large group of people) then what makes humans so special? Unless you believe in some magical form of free will that breaks the laws of the universe, then a human's "decisions" are based on mathematics and aren't actually changeable. And you don't get credit for something that you didn't have any actual part in doing (i.e. your "decisions").

midnight rain · 02-28-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Tuna, you are the perfect example of someone who hasn't thought deeply enough about science and the laws of the universe.

Well you read me like a book

FRED HALE SR. · 02-28-2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Well you read me like a book

Thats evolution working for you.

duga · 02-28-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Well you read me like a book

I meant no offense by it. I have respect for you in the sense that you are at least thinking about it on some level, which is more than I can say for most people. But you are at the phase where you are learning more about science and are assuming we know most of what's going on.

Delve a little deeper and you won't be so apathetic about it.

midnight rain · 02-28-2013, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I meant no offense by it. I have respect for you in the sense that you are at least thinking about it on some level, which is more than I can say for most people. But you are at the phase where you are learning more about science and are assuming we know most of what's going on.

Delve a little deeper and you won't be so apathetic about it.

I understand that and will fully admit that most of my current beliefs on how the Universe operates are derived from my meditations on the subject rather than any kind of formal education

That we don't know everything there is to know about science is sort of an unspoken truth, you'll never move past it in a discussion inless you accept it and move on. Once you reach that stage you understand you're discussing theory, not fact. This is my working theory on how our different elements coalesce into who we are

duga · 02-28-2013, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I understand that and will fully admit that most of my current beliefs on how the Universe operates are derived from my meditations on the subject rather than any kind of formal education

That we don't know everything there is to know about science is sort of an unspoken truth, you'll never move past it in a discussion inless you accept it and move on. Once you reach that stage you understand you're discussing theory, not fact. This is my working theory on how our different elements coalesce into who we are

Theory is always a part of science as well. When you start applying that theory to the meaning of life it becomes a philosophy, not a science. It's important to distinguish the two. When you then start blocking off other theories and eliminate the mystery of life it becomes a religion.

Most people need a religion because the vastness of the universe is too much. You strike me as a person who is willing to explore that. Don't block yourself off. Form your own beliefs but always question them. So you have this theory you have been talking about in this thread...it makes you a bit apathetic and it's clearly killing some of beauty of life. You can't stop there, break past it. I've gone through moments when I feel the same way...just keep learning. Eventually you'll be forced to make a new theory and that will inform beliefs that won't be so easy to boil down in the way that you are now.

02-28-2013, 11:10 AM	#42 (permalink)
Bane of your existence Such That Join Date: May 2007 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,197	All you are doing is summing up the reasons that we act the way we act. Sometimes you're doing on the special level, but when it serves your argument you're doing it on an individual basis. Sometimes you're saying we act a way because it "feels good." Sometimes it's because evolution said we should. I don't get what you mean by "credit." On an individual basis you don't think a man acting despite his interests is applaudable? You realize that person makes a decision, right? Edit: that was to batlord. Last edited by Bane of your existence; 02-28-2013 at 11:20 AM.

02-28-2013, 11:16 AM	#44 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	Tuna, you are the perfect example of someone who hasn't thought deeply enough about science and the laws of the universe. One of the key arguments religious people make is that by knowing so much about how everything works, it kills the mystery and there can be no joy in life. I've been a student of science for almost 10 years now and all I can say is it has only ENHANCED the mystery of life. The more we learn for sure the more we realize we DON'T know. Can human action be boiled down to the simplistic elements you are talking about? Sure. But that doesn't mean there is still a bigger picture that we have barely yet to perceive. I'm highly of the opinion that the purpose of life is to keep learning. Once you stop learning new things, you stagnate and you become one of those sad mindless robot-people. Your actions and choices can all be boiled down to human nature but the point is to LEARN from those choices and actions. You are born without limbs? You have different lessons to learn than those who do. But someone who has limbs may have a completely different outlook on life and find their existence just as hard. Pain and suffering is relative. Even if you are still of the view that we live in a selfish world, you can surely still agree that we should do what we can to ensure the survival of the human race? After all, that's the most basic instinct ingrained in any living organism: survival. And altruism and empathy help ensure our survival. And now I get to use - once again - my favorite quote of all time. This comes from the man Carl Sagan: "We are all made of star stuff and we are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." So keep learning. And always remember there is way more to life than you can possibly comprehend. Thinking you can boil all our actions down to such base impulses is pure arrogance. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...