Soldiers' families suing the UK government? Wow!

Trollheart · 06-19-2013, 05:12 AM

BBC News - Iraq damages cases: Supreme Court rules families can sue
I'm not sure how I feel about this. As an Irish person I have no direct stake in this action or decision, but I'd say if this sets a precedents families of soliders killed in combat all over the world are going to be taking cases. Surely a landmark ruling? What do yaz think?

Unknown Soldier · 06-19-2013, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

BBC News - Iraq damages cases: Supreme Court rules families can sue
I'm not sure how I feel about this. As an Irish person I have no direct stake in this action or decision, but I'd say if this sets a precedents families of soliders killed in combat all over the world are going to be taking cases. Surely a landmark ruling? What do yaz think?

It comes under the UK's obsession with the "Duty of Care" law and in this respect it's aimed at the military not providing soldiers with adequately armoured vehicles. Whilst I see the validity of the debate, the whole thing seems quite bizarre considering those in question are based in a warzone.

Trollheart · 06-19-2013, 01:11 PM

Yeah that's what I thought. I mean, surely this is literally "something you sign up for"? Nobody ever said "Join the army and fight in a foreign land but you won't be hurt?" I'm all for helping the families but it just seems like stretching it a little. I really don't know, but I imagine as I say once that genie is out of the bottle...

Unknown Soldier · 06-19-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah that's what I thought. I mean, surely this is literally "something you sign up for"? Nobody ever said "Join the army and fight in a foreign land but you won't be hurt?" I'm all for helping the families but it just seems like stretching it a little. I really don't know, but I imagine as I say once that genie is out of the bottle...

Wars have historically been won or lost due to the ability of its soldiers and generals, but modern warfare has a far greater emphasis on military equipment than probably ever before, so today you can literally out blast your opponent depending on the circumstances of the terrain etc and generally win.

So if we now have soldiers' families wanting to sue the military because of faulty equipment where does it end. I mean if somebody's tank blows up in a warzone who's to blame, who's to blame if somebody's parachute doesn't open, who's to blame if somebody's vehicle goes over a mine and even more importantly those that die from friendly fire?

When you therefore start adding "Duty of Care" into all this, the whole thing becomes a farce and makes you realize that these troops should've stayed at home in the first place.

Trollheart · 06-19-2013, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Wars have historically been fought and lost due to the ability of its soldiers and generals, but modern warfare has a far greater emphasis on military equipment than probably ever before, so today you can literally out blast your opponent depending on the circumstances of the terrain etc and generally win.

So if we now have soldiers' families wanting to sue the military because of faulty equipment where does it end. I mean if somebody's tank blows up in a warzone who's to blame, who's to blame if somebody's parachute doesn't open, who's to blame if somebody's vehicle goes over a mine and even more importantly those that die from friendly fire?

When you therefore start adding "Duty of Care" into all this, the whole thing becomes a farce and makes you realize that these troops should've stayed at home in the first place.

Perhaps the sanest words I have heard this year.

Circe · 06-19-2013, 04:36 PM

Something like this isn't that easy to quantify though. Sure, our soldiers basically sign their lives away when they join up but at the same time they expect the military to provide them with the resources and dedication required to ensure the maximum possiblity of their survival in warzones. If negligence from higher command, insufficient supplies or low quality equipment cause a soldier's death then I'm fully behind his family being able to demand compensation for it.

Newkie · 06-21-2013, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circe

Something like this isn't that easy to quantify though. Sure, our soldiers basically sign their lives away when they join up but at the same time they expect the military to provide them with the resources and dedication required to ensure the maximum possiblity of their survival in warzones. If negligence from higher command, insufficient supplies or low quality equipment cause a soldier's death then I'm fully behind his family being able to demand compensation for it.

Yeah, I can sympathise with the families of the soldiers killed, my brother was in the army for something like 13 years and was in the first Gulf War, he said he was glad it went through.

Still I was actually shocked it was passed. You can't put a price on human life but even so what do the troops and their families expect? These soldiers are in an active warzone and have been since they arrived, only the warzone became less predictable and more dangerous after Sadam fell and we claimed "victory." The MOD and the Government are complete and utter bastards, that much I can agree with, I'm just not so sure that "if I travelled in car A instead of B I would still be alive and dandy" is justifiable in such situations. It will set an interesting precedent for the future in any case.

The Batlord · 06-21-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circe

Something like this isn't that easy to quantify though. Sure, our soldiers basically sign their lives away when they join up but at the same time they expect the military to provide them with the resources and dedication required to ensure the maximum possiblity of their survival in warzones. If negligence from higher command, insufficient supplies or low quality equipment cause a soldier's death then I'm fully behind his family being able to demand compensation for it.

But mistakes happen in war. That's just reality. If commanders are caught up with worrying about getting the army sued, then they will basically be hamstrung and who knows how many soldiers might die while they're paralyzed by indecision over questions of liability? Within reason of course, but in general, if you signed your life away to the military, making a caveat that this only applies so long as it can't be proved in a court of law that your death was caused by garden variety bungling is unreasonable.

If this doesn't appeal to you, then don't join the military and don't go around saying that, "Someone needs to do something" everytime something terrible happens in the world (i.e. Syria, Lybia, Mali, etc). Not that that applies to you, but it's just a pet peeve of mine.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 06-21-2013, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

But mistakes happen in war. That's just reality. If commanders are caught up with worrying about getting the army sued, then they will basically be hamstrung and who knows how many soldiers might die while they're paralyzed by indecision over questions of liability? Within reason of course, but in general, if you signed your life away to the military, making a caveat that this only applies so long as it can't be proved in a court of law that your death was caused by garden variety bungling is unreasonable.

If this doesn't appeal to you, then don't join the military and don't go around saying that, "Someone needs to do something" everytime something terrible happens in the world (i.e. Syria, Lybia, Mali, etc). Not that that applies to you, but it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Why are you so defensive? First world nation, has excellent military technology, uses force.....but they shouldn't be held responsible for their **** ups? Why are you treating a materialistic, morally bankrupt nation like it's a ****ing person?

The Batlord · 06-22-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

Why are you so defensive?

Defensive? You're the one who changed her post after basically accusing me of being a neo-con.

Quote:

First world nation, has excellent military technology, uses force.....but they shouldn't be held responsible for their **** ups?

Within reason, sure. But, if you signed up for the military, you literally signed your life away. People dying, even through human error, is sort of expected.

Quote:

Why are you treating a materialistic, morally bankrupt nation like it's a ****ing person?

What does that even mean? And you're acting like I'm defending a country. I've already stated that I have no particular love for this country. I don't know if you've forgotten that, or just ignored it because it interfered with your self-righteous ranting.

And calling this country morally bankrupt is silly. We're doing nothing that any other nation with half a chance wouldn't do themselves. When one country has strength, it uses it to exploit weaker nations. Pretty? No. Fair? No. Reality? Yes. So implying that this country is somehow particularly bad is silly. We're as self-serving and pragmatic as any other country. You might as well just say that our genes are wrong, or the fluoride in the water is rotting our moral centers away.

06-19-2013, 05:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	Soldiers' families suing the UK government? Wow! BBC News - Iraq damages cases: Supreme Court rules families can sue I'm not sure how I feel about this. As an Irish person I have no direct stake in this action or decision, but I'd say if this sets a precedents families of soliders killed in combat all over the world are going to be taking cases. Surely a landmark ruling? What do yaz think? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

06-19-2013, 01:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	Yeah that's what I thought. I mean, surely this is literally "something you sign up for"? Nobody ever said "Join the army and fight in a foreign land but you won't be hurt?" I'm all for helping the families but it just seems like stretching it a little. I really don't know, but I imagine as I say once that genie is out of the bottle... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

06-19-2013, 04:36 PM	#6 (permalink)
Circe Blunt After Blunt After Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: In a French-ass restaurant Posts: 337	Something like this isn't that easy to quantify though. Sure, our soldiers basically sign their lives away when they join up but at the same time they expect the military to provide them with the resources and dedication required to ensure the maximum possiblity of their survival in warzones. If negligence from higher command, insufficient supplies or low quality equipment cause a soldier's death then I'm fully behind his family being able to demand compensation for it.