Music Banter - Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

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- - Pro-Life or Pro-Choice? (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/70768-pro-life-pro-choice.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore (Post 1348259)

Well, other people in the world would feel the same if they had to choose between their friend, father, mother, partner, spouse, whatever or the embryo of some woman who wants to have an abortion.

So what is your stance on the abortion of a foetus that you have a genetic stake in? Do your arguments still apply if you are considering a partner rather than 'some woman'.

I'd sacrifice my dad to get an abortion, I'm not gonna lie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali (Post 1347045)

I do think it's a little more than messed up that someone can abort at 24 weeks for any reason they wish, but honestly, I'm more concerned with getting the appropriate preventative and contraceptive measures in place and freely available so that there's less of a need for such lengths in the first place, regardless of reason.

Agreed. I'm all for making your own decisions, but I still get bothered by the fact that there's people out there who would take such matters so flippantly. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but my sister's friend (or, perhaps ex-friend) is a good example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe (Post 1348786)

Those type of people are in the minority though and are pretty rare cases imo.

Most women that have abortions find it emotionally draining similar to having a miscarriage. It's not something they would do lightly and frequently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1348817)

Oh I know. I didn't mean to insinuate that they were a majority or anything. Just saying I wish those people that act that way cared more about their decisions and really think them through. And not just about abortion, but maybe even more so with people who go through with their pregnancy. Like if they fully intend on having a baby, that they eat healthy, don't smoke, don't drink, etc.

Actually, I wish a lot of people cared more. Not just about abortion, but in general. About everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe (Post 1348837)

Oh I know. I didn't mean to insinuate that they were a majority or anything. Just saying I wish those people that act that way cared more about their decisions and really think them through. And not just about abortion, but maybe even more so with people who go through with their pregnancy. Like if they fully intend on having a baby, that they eat healthy, don't smoke, don't drink, etc.

Actually, I wish a lot of people cared more. Not just about abortion, but in general. About everything.

So educate people about the problem
making light of them doesn't solve ****

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione (Post 1348838)

So educate people about the problem
making light of them doesn't solve ****

I would if I had a big enough voice. I have zero authority. Listen to me, I am from the Beers clan of Pennsylvania.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore (Post 1347535)

Actually, what I proposed is that when deciding whose interests you should protect, the fetus or the mothers, you should protect the interests of the mother because she is the one most capable of being affected by the decision (she is the one who potentially suffers the most for it). In other words, the mother should get to choose. I added that basing a decision on what the fetus could become is basing a decision on an assumption, something I think of as a weakness.

So, it's a utilitarian sort of idea, but it is also good for non-utilitarian reasons. It has good consequences which further validates it. I believe mothers, members of our society, will appreciate the freedom to make the decision and I believe it will lead to slightly happier, healthier families. It is good for society. So unlike you I actually do think it makes sense, even if utilitarianism isn't flawless in every instance. If you still disagree with that, then that's fine with me.

...which is based on the premise that suffering is the reason killing is wrong. Otherwise it is irrelevant who potentially suffers the most. So I was giving examples of why I don't think that adds up as an explanation for why we find killing human beings to be wrong. I never said the practical reasons for supporting abortion don't make any sense.

Although, the interests of the mother vs interests of the fetus point brings up the question of justice. You say that morally we should always value the one that has the ability to suffer more/cause more suffering by proxy, but what about when one party is innocent and the other is directly responsible for the predicament? Would that principle extend to situations that involves weighing the interests of 2 adult humans, regardless of innocence or guilt?

Quote:

Actually, if people fundamentally value a human life, they will suffer more when a human life is taken. Imagine a chicken getting killed and a human getting killed. Both suffer equally. But the death of the human likely causes more suffering in others and so the death of the human is worse. For the death of a chicken to be as bad as the death of a human, you have to get a little creative.

There's nothing that could make the death of a chicken worse than the death of an innocent human, in most people's eyes. No matter how you tilt the suffering scale in the chicken's favor. That's because people generally value human life beyond its ability to suffer.

edit - If you're saying that people value human life more because it has the capacity to cause more suffering in others, then that seems to me to be circular reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali (Post 1347045)

Again, I'm not anti-abortion/pro-life. I do think it's a little more than messed up that someone can abort at 24 weeks for any reason they wish, but honestly, I'm more concerned with getting the appropriate preventative and contraceptive measures in place and freely available so that there's less of a need for such lengths in the first place, regardless of reason.

Agreed, like I said earlier my older sister was premature, born at around 24-26 weeks so that's very messed up to me... not that I'm pro-life or anything but it does bother me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe (Post 1348847)

I would if I had a big enough voice. I have zero authority. Listen to me, I am from the Beers clan of Pennsylvania.

Totally not true! You'd be surprised how easy it is to educate people on such things, especially with social media. If you care about it, talk about it. You might not make huge changes but you'd be surprised how many people you can reach, and those people pass it on, etc. You don't have to go to protests and **** to be an activist either, people who think Internet activism is not activism are idiots.

We live in an age where you can tweet your congressman, so no excuses!!!