Xurtio

I wouldn't think so. I would think the avoidance responses were there first and when consciousness emerged in evolutionary history, it gave subjective form to things like avoidance behavior and part of that was suffering.

I don't see why it would be necessary for consciousness. There are some people that claim that it's necessary, but we can easily imagine a lifeform that just does cognitive computations without experiencing them. Maybe those computations just gave rise to consciousness as a byproduct.

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John Wilkes Booth

that post is kind of confusing to me. particularly this part: "I don't see why it would be necessary for consciousness. There are some people that claim that it's necessary, but we can easily imagine a lifeform that just does cognitive computations without experiencing them. Maybe those computations just gave rise to consciousness as a byproduct."

it sounds like you're saying suffering isn't necessary for consciousness but then you go on to describe "a lifeform that just does cognitive computations without experiencing them." this doesn't sound like consciousness to me.

i guess i always thought about consciousness as being 'experienced' sort of by its very nature. so it just seems logical to me that if a conscious lifeform has 'avoidance responses' it would experience them in a negative way(e.g. pain). i'm not playing devil's advocate here, i do appreciate your responses but i don't quite understand what you're saying tbh.

Xurtio

Yes, you're right; it wouldn't be consciousness - point being that in terms of evolution and life, consciousness isn't necessary to replicate and ensure the survival of your kin. There's nothing particularly superior about cognitive function either. Bacteria do a lot better than us in numbers without cognitive functions. Parasites regularly make prey of us.

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John Wilkes Booth

yes, i'm perfectly willing to concede that point. i was asking more specifically if suffering is necessary for consciousness, since i am willing to concede the fact that maybe it is not present in lower forms of life.

i also understand what you're saying about consciousness not being necessary in and of itself. that's probably true but i tend to value consciousness, myself. i would definitely prefer this universe to one that never developed consciousness.

Xurtio

I think consciousness and suffering emerged at the same time as subjective correlates of avoidance responses and cognitive function.

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MasterBaggins

I hate god and other people. I fail to see anything negative about that.

I'm not sure what kind of negative stigma other than "atheists are bad people with no morals" there are, since I've never gone out of Kansas to find out what the rest of the world is like for longer than single weeks at a time. So all I know is that religious people, who form a large majority in my state, don't like me when I express my opinions. I don't know why they don't like me, other than the fact that I'm going against most of everything they've been brainwashed into believing.

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(flirt, fail, fornicate, fart)

Zhanteimi

I'm religious, and I don't dislike you. Carry on.

Chula Vista

I like both of you!

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Zombeels

I think it's a matter of where you are from in the manner of people's reaction to atheists. Where I live most people I know are atheists but I'm sure if I was from one of the U.S. Southern states things would be different

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What It Is