Atheism and its negative stigma...

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 12-21-2014, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Well it's just as much of an affirmative statement to say that there isn't a god than to say that there is. Sure you could be scientific about it and put the burden of proof on the accuser (spare me the flying spaghetti monster analogy), but with something vague and difficult to prove like the nature of God it's foolish to be certain in either direction.

Then again I was raised as a Christian, so even though I'm agnostic, maybe I'm still clinging onto some of those beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondo Bungle

I just personally can't understand how someone can believe something so firmly when in reality you don't know anything at all.

But I also don't really know what atheism is all about so I'm just being ignorant. Do they believe that there is absolutely no God? Because that's what I'd consider dumb, for my reason stated above.

it's basically semantics tbh. nobody really agrees on what atheism/agnosticism really mean. i can explain it after work if u want or u can just google. long story short tho no atheist i've ever met actually claims to know for sure that there's no god. it's basically the stance that it's more logical to reserve belief in something until there is evidence for it. so like me for example i have no idea why **** exists and i don't pretend to. could be god could not be god. i'll let others decide whether that makes me an atheist or an agnostic or both but i'll throw in the stipulation that my opinion is it's more logical to not make the assumption of god until we get some indication that it's a valid assumption or at least a more probable solution to the problem, which i haven't ever seen so far beyond wishy washy apologetic rhetoric, some of which is very cleverly crafted but ultimately falls short imo.

Xurtio · 12-21-2014, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

it's basically semantics tbh. nobody really agrees on what atheism/agnosticism really mean. i can explain it after work if u want or u can just google. long story short tho no atheist i've ever met actually claims to know for sure that there's no god. it's basically the stance that it's more logical to reserve belief in something until there is evidence for it. so like me for example i have no idea why **** exists and i don't pretend to. could be god could not be god. i'll let others decide whether that makes me an atheist or an agnostic or both but i'll throw in the stipulation that my opinion is it's more logical to not make the assumption of god until we get some indication that it's a valid assumption or at least a more probable solution to the problem, which i haven't ever seen so far beyond wishy washy apologetic rhetoric, some of which is very cleverly crafted but ultimately falls short imo.

Basically, gonisticism and theism are independent axes
You can be one of four things: gnostic atheist, gnostic theist, agnostic atheist, agnostic theist. The point is to separate belief from knowledge. A/theism is about belief a/gnosticism is about knowledge. A gnostic atheist is more likely to be a militant atheist becauase they think they know best. Similarily, gnostic theists are more likely to engage in extremist behavior to force their beliefs on others. Whereas agnostics on both side or more likely to have a co-existence mentality.

The Batlord · 12-21-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondo Bungle

Hey I don't believe in God either, because, as you'd expect, of the lack of evidence. The only thing I'm saying is that I think it's foolish for anyone to say that there is or isn't with 100% certainty.

I don't think there are very many people who would say that it's 100% certain that there isn't a god. I'd go so far as to call it a strawman argument to criticize atheists for that. Atheists who actively believe that there is no god generally feel that the lack of evidence for god and evidence for a naturalistic universe are convincing enough that they feel comfortable saying that he doesn't exist, but would stop short of calling it a certainty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

Basically, gonisticism and theism are independent axes
You can be one of four things: gnostic atheist, gnostic theist, agnostic atheist, agnostic theist. The point is to separate belief from knowledge. A/theism is about belief a/gnosticism is about knowledge. A gnostic atheist is more likely to be a militant atheist becauase they think they know best. Similarily, gnostic theists are more likely to engage in extremist behavior to force their beliefs on others. Whereas agnostics on both side or more likely to have a co-existence mentality.

For the most part, there is no such thing as a gnostic atheist. It's simply not a philosophical position that makes any sense to say that you know god doesn't exist. Even the most militant atheists would only describe themselves as agnostic atheists unless either A.) they had a different definition of "gnostic atheist", or B.) they were an idiot.

One other thing that picks at my brain. I can respect the logic behind being agnostic, but the basic idea of someone being able to remain completely undecided about such an important and defining concept as the existence of a god seems ludicrous to me. Your certainty might not be strong, but I just don't think the human brain can keep you from forming an opinion one way or the other, just because your logic might tell you that your belief was irrational.

Chula Vista · 12-21-2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

One other thing that picks at my brain. I can respect the logic behind being agnostic, but the basic idea of someone being able to remain completely undecided about such an important and defining concept as the existence of a god seems ludicrous to me. Your certainty might not be strong, but I just don't think the human brain can keep you from forming an opinion one way or the other, just because your logic might tell you that your belief was irrational.

Get off the f*cking fence and choose a side and then live with it 100%.

Xurtio · 12-21-2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I don't think there are very many people who would say that it's 100% certain that there isn't a god. I'd go so far as to call it a strawman argument to criticize atheists for that. Atheists who actively believe that there is no god generally feel that the lack of evidence for god and evidence for a naturalistic universe are convincing enough that they feel comfortable saying that he doesn't exist, but would stop short of calling it a certainty.

For the most part, there is no such thing as a gnostic atheist. It's simply not a philosophical position that makes any sense to say that you know god doesn't exist. Even the most militant atheists would only describe themselves as agnostic atheists unless either A.) they had a different definition of "gnostic atheist", or B.) they were an idiot.

One other thing that picks at my brain. I can respect the logic behind being agnostic, but the basic idea of someone being able to remain completely undecided about such an important and defining concept as the existence of a god seems ludicrous to me. Your certainty might not be strong, but I just don't think the human brain can keep you from forming an opinion one way or the other, just because your logic might tell you that your belief was irrational.

I generally find gnostics annoying whether theist or atheist.

Agnostic doesn't mean undecided in the 2D view (though I recognize some people use it this way as a medium ground between atheism and theism in the 1D view).

In this 2D terminology, it just means you have no ontological knowledge or you don't think one can ever have ontological knowledge of a god's existence. So basically, an agnostic atheist has nothing to prove, since the matter isn't in the domain of material evidence.

And of course, you can't prove a negative in the real world. That's why the burden is always on the positive claim.