It shouldn't.

So we all agree the magazine should have been able to publish the cartoons. And we all agree that them getting killed for it was wrong.

Do we all agree that the magazine didn't use any common sense - considering who they were dealing with?

And please don't respond with "But the extremists should have simply protested instead". That's just being naive.

I think it matters because everyone is going on as if this came out of the blue. How did this happen? How could it happen? It's pretty obvious how and why it happened. I think that's what Chula is saying. People are shocked. They should not be. They should be saddened, but not shocked.

And do you think, CB, with their deaths (if they are dead) that the sudden Islamophobia in France will now stop? Yeah. Sure it will. They're all the same, aren't they after all? :rolleyes:

Typical? What exactly do you mean by that? You can frame what you're saying however you want, but on a base level justifying their actions is exactly what you're doing. It shouldn't matter who the victims even were, the fact is they were brutally murdered and that's horrible. Their actions have no bearing on the moral implications of what the gunmen did. I don't think anyone is viewing them as heroes, they've more become martyrs because they died while taking full advantage of our civil liberties.
The Lee Rigby case is entirely different, but using your arguments - didn't they kill him because of his complacency and participation in an illegal war that killed hundreds of innocents and ravaged the Middle East? I wouldn't say so, because no matter how much I disagree with what Lee Rigby has done being beheaded in the street is a disgusting way to be killed. Even if Lee Rigby or the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had been truly atrocious human beings, the murderers are still the ones to blame. People should simply not be subjected to these levels of violence.

I see that Bill Donohue is still going for the gold in the America's biggest idiot competition.

:laughing: What?

I think this foreshadows worrying things in France, and Europe as a whole. The economic crisis has already left a good deal of the countries in the EU leaning right and blaming minorities for their troubles. This is just going to maximise that. I think the only hope is that Muslim police officer that was also killed, he is important because people can look at him and see how negative an impact something like this has on absolutely everyone.

Another four people killed btw. So that takes the death toll up to 16 is it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlQJbsVs48

I'm watching on here.

"At least four"

I read an interview with a young Muslim doctor who helped treat the wounded on 9/11 about a month after the event. It most likely won't help unfortunately.

You're right. I can only hope it will at least have a small impact in the UK, his story is on a lot of the front pages today.

I should clarify. That "typical" was a generic one, directed at those (including but not specifically aimed at you) who choose to see any opposing view on this as tacit support for murder: "if you're not with us yer against us". It's quite hurtful to be honest. I have reiterated time and again I am NOT justifying murder, saying they deserved it or it was the thing to do. I am just trying to point out that it was not unexpected, or should not have been. You **** with people's beliefs, especially if they're already ****ed in the head, you get this sort of response. It does NOT make it RIGHT and I AM NOT SUPPORTING IT, but it's easy to see a) how it happened and b) how it could have been avoided.

The level of hypocrisy here is staggering honestly. You'd think these guys were angels who were attacked for nothing. They weren't: they were arrogant ****s who thought they could **** on people's beliefs and nothing would happen to them. There's a case to be answered for responsibility, on their side and the side of everyone who masks racism, sexism or any other ism behind a cartoon. It's still an attack, if not a physical one, and it's a red rag to an already enraged bull.

Lee Rigby didn't stand in the street with a placard saying UP YOURS MOHAMMED! which is essentially what these guys did. That's the difference.

Yes it might be disgusting, but it still amazes me how people are appalled when this type of thing happens, like it should never happen here. We're supposedly fighting a barbaric opponent in the Middle East, when means their way of fighting doesn't follow the rules of war that most people generally accept.

Given that these extremists feel that the west is inflicting this violence on them, the situation works both ways. If your country is actively involved in war directly or indirectly it's going to be a target and in warfare rules usually don't apply.

I just think points like these at least partially shift some of the blame towards 12 people who may not have been upstanding citizens, but in no way deserve to be dead. Their cartoons were crass, offensive, and lacked taste. But in the modern world we are allowed to create things that are crass and offensive.
That's why it becomes a question of free speech. If their art was of great value I think the discourse would be very different indeed, but the way it is complicates matters. The fact is as much as I think Islam is getting far too much hatred for the acts of a minority, is that society has modernised and left a lot of its followers behind.

I actually agree with all of this. If it appeared like my point was saying otherwise, I just didn't express myself fully. I think the war is the root of the problem and I am ashamed to be part of a country that has done so much damage to the Middle East. However that doesn't justify this behavior at all, this type of retribution is seriously flawed. The fact is this event has wide reaching implications about the way this world works and the morality of our nations.

It does shift part of the blame towards them, at least the three cartoonists. It's meant to. I'm not saying they wanted to die, but they must have known the risks. Why not draw pictures of drunk Irishmen or Messi or Hitler or something? If you poke the hornets' nest, given that there is a sign warning you not to, don't be surprised if you get stung.

I jsut personally think the emphasis is too much on what happened and not why. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has said that they at least partially brought this upon themselves. It's not even being considered. Chula's analogy is very apt: why would you do that, knowing what you know? There are other ways to express yourself that don't involve insulting the religion of a people who have a section of their population/adherents mentally tilted towards bloody retribution. We're back to the lion's head again.

And still nothing about the police killed. People are adept here at ignoring certain parts of posts and focussing on others...

What he said. You should really redefine what you consider racism.
Racism is too big and important an issue for the opposition against it to discredit itself by inflationary use of the word.

See I think this is absolutely disgusting. It shouldn't matter in the slightest what they did, they shouldn't have been executed in the street. We are free to do and say what we want within the limits of the law, we shouldn't have to censor ourselves because of fear of being shot.

Whilst we are generally agreeing, you need to take different perspectives into consideration. Firstly it's no good applying western morality to the people's of the Middle East and then using it to condemn them. These savages by our standards have a very different morality code and are fully used to executions in public that they deem to be justifiable.

We're in 2015 and it still amazes me when so-called educated people cite that democracy needs to be installed in the Middle East. Given the fact that half of Europe is not aware of what democracy actually is, I find it a complete waste of time for the Middle East. They have their own doctrine and should be allowed to operate it as they see fit and as long as we the west continually involve ourselves in their affairs, then we really shouldn't complain about how they react.

Yeah, one again you're right. Although public executions may be normal in these countries, I still don't think that makes it okay. While it's not their faultt hat they were conditioned that way, killing people in the streets is just so obviously immoral to me.

First of all I am only parroting others who are calling it racist. I don't live in France or understand how the word applies there. I also don't fully understand how badly affected the French Muslim population is by the cartoons.

If enough folks from over there define them as racist then I will take their word for it.

Of course it is. There's not a single person here who is saying it isn't.

Muslims are not a race. It's actually not that complicated.

uh I personally think this whole thing is pretty shocking. how many cartoonist get killed per year because of their cartoons? how many people that write satire about islam end up getting murdered? I mean you can use the "poke the bear" thing all you want but this isn't a high probability event

Actually, by modern definitions it is.

Race (human classification) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree with this. I wish I was as enlightened as Chula or TH to the point where I can wake up ready to hear about deaths on the part of extremists. Would have made 9/11 a lot easier to deal with.

That's because you're civilised and they're not. :)

The word racist has different connotations not just in different countries but also linguistically. In the example of France, the country as far as western Europe goes has had more 'racial issues' than any other since WWII.

If you take the country's deep colonial roots, the Algerian problem, the huge African and Muslim immigration cycles over the years, the history of racially incited riots, the strength of the French National Front movement, the freedom of speech by both extremists on both the right and the left, the history of satirical literature to print whatever it wants and the country's unique and direct political agenda on foreign affairs, has certainly created a country of severe cultural divisions that has really been evident since the 1960s.

So yer the country is certainly far more racist than the UK is most aspects, largely due to some of the divisions I've mentioned above.

Nothing about religion there.

Come on man, that's not what we are saying at all. The event itself is shocking as all hell. Why it happened is not.

Of course they shouldn't have been killed. I have gone to great lengths to explain this. However, if someone says "Do that again and I'll kill you" and you KNOW they mean it, and you do it again, how can you be surprised that they carry out their threat? We're not living in Utopia. Sometimes you need to use common sense in your life, and understand that some things are bigger and more important than your ego.
Every single time there is a cartoon depicting Mohammed there are riots, death threats, and so on. Not everyone gets killed, but you can see it pisses them off so why would you continue to court disaster?
That doesn't even deserve an answer. It's so beneath you man.
Nobody wants to understand. It's so much easier to just pull what you want from what anyone says who voices a different opinion.

Once again, the police? Anyone? Or have you just to admit I have a point and can't defend it?

That's accepting defeat. Compromising your freedom and civil liberties in the face of violence and cruelty. If I was them I would have absolutely carried on doing what I was doing. If we give violent people that much power in the world, then we're not free anymore.

I know this is not an exact analogy and bringing Nazi Germany into a discussion is seldom a good idea, but: What do you think of this guy?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...manya-1936.jpg

That's the kind of attitude that will get more people killed. It's not accepting defeat. It's accepting that you can't do everything you want to without regard for the consequences.

Is not going into a garden with a "Beware of the dog" sign accepting defeat? Is waiting to cross until the light is green accepting defeat? Is crossing over to the other side of the street when you see a gang of drunk lads falling out of a pub accepting defeat? Sometimes you have to use logic and use your head. Honestly, the kind of spurious reasoning being used here is unbelievable at times. Who cares if you can't draw cartoons of Mohammed? Wouldn't you rather be alive? Do you think your life is worth your expression of free speech, if that's how you choose to see it: I see it, as I have already said, as inflating your ego and being arrogant.

Grindy, I have absolutely no idea what you're asking. So one guy doesn't salute: what does that prove and what does that have to do with this discussion?

I see we're back to generalizing again. Can't we stick to the specifics since it's an extremely unique set of circumstances that led up to what happened?

ON A SIDE NOTE: This is probably the most serious thread I've seen since I joined here and although there's been discourse, everyone's being civil and not resorting to personal attacks or name calling.

Nice! :clap:

He is demonstratively and openly doing something that opposes violent extremists, risking his own well-being and the well-being of his family and friends.
This photo is pretty famous and many people consider him some kind of hero.

Your analogy is flawed. Bullying or threatening people who disagree with you isn't like putting a "beware of dog" sign in your yard. It's more like putting that same sign on a public sidewalk, and then harassing people who pass by (people who have every right to use that sidewalk). People have a right to speak their minds, and compromising that right is a very slippery slope.

Kowtowing to murderers and bullies never works out well. History has proven this sentiment time and again, but people never learn. All it does is make temporary peace, all while making the bullies even stronger for when violence inevitably breaks out.

It's because most of the usual name callers either haven't entered into the thread yet or they've been banned in the last six months ;)

............ or maybe the simpleton just forgot to salute, now and again some sheep forget to follow,

Trollheart's analogy might not be perfect here, BUT I agree with his use of common sense in these circumstances and it's something that society needs to use more of. Everybody knows that freedom of speech and liberty of actions within reason are acceptable in our society, but now and again restraint needs to be used, some people are aware of when to but others aren't and that's where the problem often is. For example the Police serve as a good example, as they often remove a person/persons in the interest of 'public order' regardless of who's at fault. In the example of the incident that's being discussed here, it's the product of a society that encourages free-speech in most aspects and we have a magazine that excelled in this, sadly they've paid the price for this, when a bit of initial common sense may have saved some lives here.

But these people wouldn't be bullying if the West weren't in the Middle East, as they would have no reason to. Using the historical context of expansionist bullies and dictators is not a good example here, as the subjugation of the west is not being sought by these extremists, so the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" idiom is not really suitable here.

Seems highly unlikely, but we are not debating this guy, but risky gestures of defiance in general, so we may still assume for the sake of argument, that it was one.

Here are my thoughts:

This was an event that, yes, was really really awful. Others have expressed that here, and so I don't feel the need to spend a lot of time saying so, but I agree entirely. However, let's not set these cartoonists up as martyrs of some kind - they did publish virulently Islamophobic cartoons, which was a (much less) terrible thing to do. Trollheart and Chula Vista are right that they could have seen this coming, but I buy James's (I think) argument that that isn't a good reason to stop. The reason to stop should have been that they were engaging in horribly Islamophobic behavior, which, um, is a bad thing. They didn't at all deserve to die - again, this was a tragedy - and I wouldn't even argue that it's right to stop drawing your cartoons (or speaking out in any way) just because you're afraid. Free speech is important. But that doesn't make these cartoonists heroes - and them not being heroes doesn't make their deaths any less tragic.

(There's something else I'd like to address, but James, when you say society has moved past Islam (paraphrasing), you should just note that what we consider "radical Islam" is an invention of the last century.)

I also think it's time for the French people to take a long hard look at themselves and think about how their culture makes stuff like this so common. I gather that French society is much more communitarian than America's (for example), and so our problems with racism manifest themselves differently than France's. In France (or so I've been told - if you have firsthand experience feel free to tell me how stupid what I'm saying is), people are focused on a "French culture" - but that translates to "white Christian/"enlightened" atheist culture" because they're the majority, and that directly leads to there being so few voices saying "Hey, maybe you shouldn't do something just for the sake of pissing off Muslims, who, just like anyone else, are a group that ought to feel safe and able to be who they are in our 21st century liberal society" in the mainstream, along with leading to anti-Semitic violence and anti-immigrant rhetoric.

I don't think the "long hard look" I talk about is going to happen, and in some ways I think that's the real tragedy of this event - the culture hurts Muslims, a couple radicals strike back, causing people's prejudices to increase, and so the cycle continues. However you look at it, this is awful, but I think we need to be careful to to walk the line between Islamophobic bigotry and defending the attackers.

They mocked other religions as well mate. Islam deserves the mocking it gets.

By the way I'm interested to see where people are calling these cartoonists heroes?

If they would have published only anti-islam cartoons, I would have absolutely agreed with you about the islamophobia, but they were mocking other religions as well. Since they were criticising religious fundamentalism in general, and islamic fundamentalism seems to be the predominant form of religious extremism in France, I also don't think that concentrating on islam (if that was happening) was motivated by primarily xenophobic attitudes.

This video shows the footage of the policeman being shot in the head so if you're uncomfortable with that, don't watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEYVkaDAlMc

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