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Old 04-19-2015, 12:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls View Post
I'm curious if black people get killed by cops more frequently in areas that aren't riddled by violence, gangs, and drugs, or if the stats are skewed because of the all the ghettos inhabited by minorities.
This. It's pretty much impossible to discuss this as a white person without sounding racist.
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Old 04-19-2015, 12:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls View Post
I'm curious if black people get killed by cops more frequently in areas that aren't riddled by violence, gangs, and drugs, or if the stats are skewed because of the all the ghettos inhabited by minorities.
This has been brought up as well, earlier in the thread:

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Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on*law enforcement and racial conflict

Of note in this research literature is a 2003 paper, “Neighborhood Context and Police Use of Force,” that suggests police are more likely to employ force in higher-crime neighborhoods generally, complicating any easy interpretation of race as the decisive factor in explaining police forcefulness. The researchers, William Terrill of Northeastern University and Michael D. Reisig of Michigan State University, found that “officers are significantly more likely to use higher levels of force when encountering criminal suspects in high crime areas and neighborhoods with high levels of concentrated disadvantage independent of suspect behavior and other statistical controls.” Terrill and Reisig explore several hypothetical explanations and ultimately conclude:

"Embedded within each of these potential explanations is the influence of key sociodemographic variables such as race, class, gender, and age. As the results show, when these factors are considered at the encounter level, they are significant. However, the race (i.e., minority) effect is mediated by neighborhood context. Perhaps officers do not simply label minority suspects according to what Skolnick (1994) termed “symbolic assailants,” as much as they label distressed socioeconomic neighborhoods as potential sources of conflict."
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ya know, when ya haven't seen one of these Soulflower black vs. white debates in a while you kinda forget what they are like.

Oh, and BTW. The media fules her fire by playing major bias in reporting this stuff.

Critics see racial 'double standard' in coverage of police shootings - Washington Times
Lololol Washington Times

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls View Post
I'm curious if black people get killed by cops more frequently in areas that aren't riddled by violence, gangs, and drugs, or if the stats are skewed because of the all the ghettos inhabited by minorities.
But I mean the neighborhood stuff is also about race. There are a lot of complex factors obviously, but the big reason that more violent neighborhoods tend to be more heavily minority is centuries of oppression, most recently including decades of housing discrimination.

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I'll re-post this, because I find it very interesting, and I'd like to hear what you all make of it:

So, is it a viable option? Do you see any flaws or downsides with it? Do you think that it might have any effects that the study possibly didn't account for? Spill!
It doesn't get at the root of the problem. Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a really smart piece dealing with this a couple days ago:
Spoiler for Wall o' Text:
There is a tendency, when examining police shootings, to focus on tactics at the expense of strategy. One interrogates the actions of the officer in the moment trying to discern their mind-state. We ask ourselves, "Were they justified in shooting?" But, in this time of heightened concern around the policing, a more essential question might be, "Were we justified in sending them?" At some point, Americans decided that the best answer to every social ill lay in the power of the criminal-justice system. Vexing social problems—homelessness, drug use, the inability to support one's children, mental illness—are presently solved by sending in men and women who specialize in inspiring fear and ensuring compliance. Fear and compliance have their place, but it can't be every place.

When Walter Scott fled from the North Charleston police, he was not merely fleeing Michael Thomas Slager, he was attempting to flee incarceration. He was doing this because we have decided that the criminal-justice system is the best tool for dealing with men who can't, or won't, support their children at a level that we deem satisfactory. Peel back the layers of most of the recent police shootings that have captured attention and you will find a broad societal problem that we have looked at, thrown our hands up, and said to the criminal-justice system, "You deal with this."

Last week I was in Madison, Wisconsin, where I was informed of the killing of Tony Robinson by a police officer. Robinson was high on mushrooms. The police were summoned after he chased a car. The police killed him. A month earlier, I'd been thinking a lot about Anthony Hill, who was mentally ill. One day last month, Hill stripped off his clothes and started jumping off of his balcony. The police were called. They killed him. I can't see the image of Tamir Rice aimlessly kicking snow outside the Cleveland projects and think of how little we invest in occupying the minds of children. A bored Tamir Rice decided to occupy his time with a airsoft gun. He was killed.

There is of course another way. Was Walter Scott's malfunctioning third-brake light really worth a police encounter? Should the state repeatedly incarcerate him for not paying child support? Do we really want people trained to fight crime dealing with someone who's ceased taking medication? Does the presence of a gun really improve the chance of peacefully resolving a drug episode? In this sense, the police—and the idea of police reform—are a symptom of something larger. The idea that all social problems can, and should, be resolved by sheer power is not limited to the police. In Atlanta, a problem that began with the poor state of public schools has now ending by feeding more people into the maw of the carceral state.

There are many problems with expecting people trained in crime-fighting to be social workers. In the black community, there is a problem of legitimacy. In his 1953 book The Quest For Community, conservative Robert Nisbet distinguishes between "power" and "authority." Authority, claims Nisbet, is a matter of relationships, allegiances, and association and is "based ultimately upon the consent of those under it." Power, on the other hand, is "external" and "based upon force." Power exists where allegiances have decayed or never existed at all. "Power arises," writes Nesbit, "only when authority breaks down."

African Americans, for most of our history, have lived under the power of the criminal-justice system, not its authority. The dominant feature in the relationship between African Americans and their country is plunder, and plunder has made police authority an impossibility, and police power a necessity. The skepticism of Officer Darren Wilson's account in the shooting of Michael Brown, for instance, emerges out of lack of police authority—which is to say it comes from a belief that the police are as likely to lie as any other citizen. When African American parents give their children "The Talk," they do not urge them to make no sudden movements in the presence of police out of a profound respect for the democratic ideal, but out of the knowledge that police can, and will, kill them.

But for most Americans, the police—and the criminal-justice system—are figures of authority. The badge does not merely represent rule via lethal force, but rule through consent and legitimacy rooted in nobility. This is why whenever a liberal politician offers even the mildest criticism of the police, they must add that "the majority of officers are good, noble people." Taken at face value this is not much of a defense—like a restaurant claiming that on most nights, there really are no rats in the dining room. But interpreted less literally the line is not meant to defend police officers, but to communicate the message that the speaker is not questioning police authority, which is to say the authority of our justice system, which is to say—in a democracy—the authority of the people themselves.

Thus it was not surprising, last week, to see that the mayor of North Charleston ordered the use of body cameras for all officers. Body cameras are the least divisive and least invasive step toward reforming the practices of the men and women we permit to kill in our names. Body cameras are helpful in police work, but they are also helpful in avoiding a deeper conversation over what it means to keep whole swaths of America under the power of the justice system, as opposed to the authority of other branches of civil society.

Police officers fight crime. Police officers are neither case-workers, nor teachers, nor mental-health professionals, nor drug counselors. One of the great hallmarks of the past forty years of American domestic policy is a broad disinterest in that difference. The problem of restoring police authority is not really a problem of police authority, but a problem of democratic authority. It is what happens when you decide to solve all your problems with a hammer. To ask, at this late date, why the police seem to have lost their minds is to ask why our hammers are so bad at installing air-conditioners. More it is to ignore the state of the house all around us. A reform that begins with the officer on the beat is not reform at all. It's avoidance. It's a continuance of the American preference for considering the actions of bad individuals, as opposed to the function and intention of systems.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
This has been brought up as well, earlier in the thread:
Thanks.

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But I mean the neighborhood stuff is also about race. There are a lot of complex factors obviously, but the big reason that more violent neighborhoods tend to be more heavily minority is centuries of oppression, most recently including decades of housing discrimination.
That's kind of the point. Police brutality is a bi-product of systematic racial oppression that has been happening since this country was founded. Does eliminating racial profiling and minority deaths by cop do anything to solve the real problem? If I was a justice warrior I would be attacking the issue at it's core rather than police brutality (which in reality is a blip of a problem in the grand scheme of things). I feel like people focus on this issue because it is easier to solve and easier to blame other's for. At the end of the day racial discrimination will never change until the ghettos are dissolved or white people are the ghetto majority.

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That post was obviously not directed at you and was directed at the immature posters commenting on the topic.
Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant and immature. Old news.

This discussion is really no different from arguing with you about music. Have you ever thought about why you are the minority on almost every point you decide to stand behind, even though you're not the only racial minority on the forum?
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Last edited by DwnWthVwls; 04-19-2015 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
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That's kind of the point. Police brutality is a bi-product of systematic racial oppression that has been happening since this country was founded. Does eliminating racial profiling and minority deaths by cop do anything to solve the real problem? If I was a justice warrior I would be attacking the issue at it's core rather than police brutality (which in reality is a blip of a problem in the grand scheme of things). I feel like people focus on this issue because it is easier to solve and easier to blame other's for. At the end of the day racial discrimination will never change until the ghetto's are dissolved or white people are the ghetto majority.
I agree with this for the most part. I guess I thought you were agreeing with everybody else that this "isn't about race" for some reason.
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Old 04-19-2015, 08:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks.





Anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant and immature. Old news.

This discussion is really no different from arguing with you about music. Have you ever thought about why you are the minority on almost every point you decide to stand behind, even though you're not the only racial minority on the forum?

Actually there are some people who actually DO agree with my stance on this issue.
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Old 04-19-2015, 07:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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you seem to be under the impression that i'm saying there are no incidents where the cop is just racist. i'm not saying that. and i've said earlier in the thread that being black statistically makes you more likely to experience this sort of thing. so it seems like my tone isn't outraged enough for you or something... nothing that i've said is contradicted by the points you're trying to make, you're just doing it in a much more emotional way. but i've seen this **** escalate for years now so i'm really not trying to pour gas on that fire.
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Old 04-19-2015, 08:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm trying to figure out what that has to do with what I said.
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Old 04-19-2015, 08:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm trying to figure out what that has to do with what I said.
Oh my god just because she's black you can't see any similar concepts discussed in your posts? I can't believe how racist you can get sometimes man.
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