Then they can't, and secondary sources like non-profit, family, go fund me, and volunteer organizations step in. Expecting the government to do it all is not realistic and quite unfair/entitled.

and my point is they were benefiting from the taxes they paid they're entire life, from infrastructure to education. I'm not saying take away their social security or options to apply for aid. I'm saying it's not the responsibility of the government to help every single person under every circumstance, but Chula/elph seem to think it is.

I'm not assuming anything about welfare, it was just an example. The bolded seems contradictory, youre arguing against my mentality and then saying there isn't anything wrong with it. Which is it?

So we have government assistance and tons of charity, and we still have a problem, and yet you think it's somehow not any fault of our own or that we can't make better decisions to improve our situation? And if you agree, than why on earth should we not be responsible for those things?

If you say so.

Why do unemployment rates go dramatically up in times of crisis? Is it because people make bad personal financial choices en masse? No, it's because their employers sack them when their company goes bad. For many people it's very hard to find work after that, so of course they will need assistance benefits. This is not an agreeable situation - you merely receive a subsistence wage, which impels you to plan your expenses every month very carefully.

On the people who make bad decisions - as if everybody else make good decisions all the time - why should they not be allowed benefits? Assistance is absolutely essential when one can't find work. And shouldn't people be able to get another chance, even if they are partly responsible for their situations? Being unemployed and on benefits is punishment enough by itself. Besides, welfare administrations already spend too much time and resources on finding out who qualifies benefits - let's not complicate it further.

DWV, statements like these are what cause me doubt.

1. I'm not responsible for other people screwing up - assumes everyone in need is there because they messed up.

2. It's not my fault if you can't make better decisions to improve your situation - assumes everyone in dire straights are there because of bad decision making.

3. People in financial trouble are there because they overspent their means - more assuming.

You seem to only want to focus on people who **** up, and therefore it's not the goverment's responsibility to help them. In the past few pages I haven't seen you mention anything in regards to those who end up in tough shape simply because of a bad luck of the draw. Or how, we as a society, are responsible to help them out via social programs and the taxes we pay to support them.

Your overall negativity towards anyone who requires assistance over the course of the discussion is what turns me off.

You need help? It's your own damn fault. :(

1. I already distinguished between people creating problems vs uncontrollable circumstances.

2. I already admitted not everyone is in bad positions because of poor decision making and that we SHOULD help them.. ie - being born into it, unplanned pregnancy, etc

3. I already said it's one of MANY problems that CAN be a factor.

Seriously, do you even read my posts or just browse them in a fit of rage and miss all the points? I don't have negative views of people who need assistance, I have negative views towards those who don't even try to better their position(WHEN POSSIBLE, another point I covered) when the problem is one they created.

At least you managed to not throw insults this time around.

This is the kind of stuff where we have differing opinions. On one hand I agree that its ****ty to base receiving welfare on passing a drug test. On the other, if you know you need to be clean to get welfare, than get fucking clean or AT LEAST try, my god, and if you can't get clean right away at least show some effort by going to meetings or seeking free assistance.

It's the main overall tone. Yes you've snuck in some of those things but your main tone is one of almost resentment to anyone who has to lean on the government.

And it's not rage. Maybe a bit of alcohol haze, but not rage.

Almost resentment, isn't resentment, and yes there is a tone, because I'm annoyed that we grow up learning that we have to take responsibility for our screw ups... Being grounded, bad grades in school, parent lectures, etc and then we turn into adults and it's all thrown out the window? No, I'm sorry, that's just not how life works, you don't get a free pass because the government offers assistance and you don't have parents to coddle you.

It's also not ANYONE who has to lean on the government it's a very specific group of do nothings. Maybe, it's not specific, but it's the attitude of these people that I have a problem with.