Science!

DwnWthVwls · 12-07-2019, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

jfc

?

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So what exactly does gender mean anymore? At this point it just seems to be somebody's identity and is only tied to their sex because of the stigmas and stereotypes we pounded into our culture. Ideally, gender shouldn't be a thing to worry about and people should get to be their selves regardless of if they have a dick or not. The only real purpose for identifying somebody based on gender or sex is only for the purpose of having sex otherwise just treat them like a human being. Then again, that will never happen because people can't fathom living with out stereotypes based on the superficial things so here we are having to compromise with an overly convoluted mess. I blame Boomers.

Indeed, that is pretty much what I mean. We need to have room for the people who don't fit into outdated gender ideas, but the concept of gender is firmly rooted in our culture, so it's more practical to expand the concept of gender than to abolish it

DwnWthVwls · 12-07-2019, 05:12 AM

I agree that is certainly the more practical thing to do. The problem is the community trying to expand the idea of gender are the ones making it meaningless by taking the position that there are infinite genders, which is why we have idiots on the internet identifying as attack helicopters. Why do we need anything further than non-binary as an expansion of gender identity? It just muddles gender construct with arbitrary nuance.

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 05:47 AM

I agree about the infinite genders: the concept of gender should be defined in such a way that we have a few sensible categories that together include everybody and as far as I can see male/female/non-binary genders would cover it. But I wasn't talking about the infinite genders thing and I don't see it as a big problem: it is just a small group of people who are wilfully focussed on by conservatives to make the concept of more than two genders seem silly

By the way: I think the main reason to clearly define and limit things is that in the end we should make gender less important, and by overcomplicating things we only make gender a bigger thing. That is why I initially had my doubts about about expanding the concept of gender at all, but as I said getting rid of it seems impossible, and in that case acknowledging non-binary people at least is important

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 06:40 AM

Of course these genders make sense if you explain them; conservatives leave away the nuance to make it seem much sillier than it is if you take time to understand. Still, whether they make sense or not, I do think there should be a clearly structured, minimal system of genders for the reasons I mentioned above

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't really agree, let people identify however they want, the only people all that concerned with it are in total bad faith anyway

DWV sounds like he belongs on /pol/, "attack helicopters" whatever

People should be able to be whatever they want, that's very important. Identifying is just a label, and that is important too to some extent, because as we can't escape these labels everyone needs to be able to choose a label that they're comfortable with. But in the end gender being made into a big deal in our culture is what caused all the harm, with different character traits, capabilities, interests, clothes, etc being attached to gender.
Say that a complex system of many genders was accepted as part of our culture. Then navigating this system correctly, gendering everyone in the right way etc, would mean that it would be a big part of our lives. Imagine how much occupation with the concept of gender that would require, which only validates the old mistake of making gender such a big deal. In the end we want people not to care about people's gender; right now it's one of the first things we (try to) register about someone, and in this hypothetical case it would probably be the first question we ask when we meet someone, after someone's name.
My hope is that by acknowledging a third gender and the fact that these things are a spectrum, everyone will drift towards acknowledging that they are somewhere on the spectrum instead of at the end, and things will become less of a big deal, just like what is happening with sexuality. I see a lot of teenagers around me being like: 'I might be a bit bisexual, I don't really know where I am on the spectrum and I don't really care' and so people make less of a fuss about sexuality, I like that. I did not think this comparison through though, I'm just writing as things pop up into my head, so I might not be satisfied with this whole analysis in a few minutes

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

pretty great chance you've already been attracted to women with XY chromosomes (I mean this is not the hardline way to determine sex anyway but for the sake of argument)

the biological aspect meant nothing to you in identifying them as female

Very true

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

but why would we then make it three genders?

Well, because the more genders, the more we stray away from having no genders at all, or gender being unimportant. And I suppose that the more complex these genders become, the more things get attributed to gender (or the more it validates that so many things get attributed to gender). But you're right that gender is already a very big deal, maybe so much so that it wouldn't really make a difference. That was the main thing that bothered me about my argument too. Also, right now I don't see any point in having more than three genders, but I don't know much about other genders, so upon learning more I might change my mind. My opinion on gender is not rigid and mostly based on my own experience, so I'm very willing to learn more. Is there any other gender you can use as an example?
And of course I will always respect the way people identfy

Lucem Ferre · 12-07-2019, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

but the dudes here proclaiming that gender is bunk all dress strictly adhering to a male dress code (myself more or less included)

Yeah, that's probably only because it's so encoded into us that typical male attire is what we feel comfortable in. In the end that's all this gender stuff is about, helping people get comfortable with themselves. Doesn't matter if it's typical or different.

**Marie Monday** · 12-07-2019, 09:51 AM

Yes! And the difficult thing is that we can try do that in two opposite ways: by expanding or diminishing our concept of gender. What I hesitate about is which way is the best

DwnWthVwls · 12-07-2019, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

pretty great chance you've already been attracted to women with XY chromosomes (I mean this is not the hardline way to determine sex anyway but for the sake of argument)

the biological aspect meant nothing to you in identifying them as female

I just said that its entirely possible for me to be attracted to biological men who identify as women until they get naked and have a penis and i no longer want to have sex with them. Which is why I questioned your gender mattering when it comes to “having the sex” comment.