Universal Basic Income or Class Warfare

~~jwb~~ · 10-31-2020, 08:16 PM

It was definitely him and probably some of the rest of you

~~jwb~~ · 11-01-2020, 09:30 AM

I don't think you endorsed Mao or Stalin outright, I think you sometimes gave some of their policies more credit than they deserve such as the 5 year plan and the great leap forward.

It's a common talking point for Communists to cite the rapid industrialization under the 5 year plan as some sort of massive economic success story that shows the efficacy of a controlled economy. Richard Wolff does this imo. We've argued about it in the past.

It's a disingenuous talking point imo because the way the 5 year plan essentially worked was to confiscate food stocks and export them to pay for the industrial machines necessary for industrialization.

This does work, yes, but it works by starving millions of peasants in a short period of time because instead of that good going to feed the populace it's going to exports.

The great leap forward was modeled after this and killed even more people with even less tangible results in terms of industrialization. So it was even more of a disaster.

You can say people starve under capitalism too or that famines have happened in tsarist Russia, which is true, but that's whataboutism.

The deaths in the holodomor are classed as a genocide because the rate and scale of the famine was massive compared to typical famines and was completely artificially induced by Stalins policies. And the fact that things have also been bad under capitalism or the tsar is not a good excuse for mass murder.

I think the best argument you can make for the 5 year plan is that without that rapid industrialization Russia might not have been able to take on the Nazis and the Nazis might've won the war. But that is a rationalization using hindsight, since the Nazis weren't even in power during the 5 year plan and when they rose to power Stalin signed a deal with them and mutually annexed and invaded Poland.

Obviously the deal wasn't going to last forever but Stalin was actually in shock when Hitler decided to invade Russia. He was banking on the fact that Hitler wouldn't start a 2 front war.

Either way, no such argument can be made for the great leap forward. The extent to which Chinese communism has been a failure is the extent to which they modeled themselves on the USSR. The extent to which they are now economically successful is the extent to which they started distancing themselves from the Soviet model and embracing international trade.

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 09:56 AM

Tbh when I’ve read about Mao and China it’s a crazy split: the destroying everything part sounds so joyous but then the we’re all happy workers let’s work work work for the revolution looks like the most miserable life imaginable

I just like to fantasize about the tearing everything down part

I don’t care if it doesn’t add up or it would make everything a million times worse or that I’d die

I guess I have to admit those five year plans and all that seem miserable

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 10:01 AM

I’m not even sure if it was really Mao that got it going but the entire destroy the “four olds” thing was just fire.

~~jwb~~ · 11-01-2020, 10:11 AM

I know exactly where your impulses lie but it's good to see you admit something like that tbh.

Now take the same logic and apply it to modern China. They're more economically successful but even less defensible from your POV. They've moved further away from communism and are only nominally Communists now. They engage in international trade and they have a strict authoritarian government that is self justifying and increasingly nationalistic around the Han Chinese ethnicity. Sounds like fascism to me.

People accuse Stalin of being a fascist... I don't think he was. I think he was a ruthless pragmatist. But the current regimes in China and NK could probably be properly identified as fascist regimes. Regardless of what they call themselves.

Remember, the Nazis called themselves the national socialist workers party. The north Koreans call themselves the democratic people's republic of Korea. State titles mean nothing. It's propoganda.

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 10:29 AM

My crush on China grew tremendously when I saw them contain the virus.

I’m exhausted on defending them otherwise though. I know this is psychopathic and maybe people don’t believe it but I’d love to see them destroy America. I don’t care if it makes sense or not. I can’t stand this place. I know it’s like well why would you want something even worse. It takes a lot of hate to get there lol and a lot of crazy and probably a lot of drug abuse

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 10:34 AM

I also really feel sorry for North Korea because they were forced into total isolation imo

The history of the occupation from Japan, then the split

Like if North Korea was a schoolboy it would be like the teacher made him stand in the corner all ****ing year then everyone says why does this kid hate school?

It’s hard for me to hate their dictators because I think it was an inevitable outcome of their situation

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 10:40 AM

Concerning the Nazis well there really isn’t anything more inclined to be entirely socialist or government run or communist or whatever term you want to use than the military.

~~jwb~~ · 11-01-2020, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I also really feel sorry for North Korea because they were forced into total isolation imo

The history of the occupation from Japan, then the split

Like if North Korea was a schoolboy it would be like the teacher made him stand in the corner all ****ing year then everyone says why does this kid hate school?

It’s hard for me to hate their dictators because I think it was an inevitable outcome of their situation

well it was inevitable if you insist on having a nominally communist dictatorship, yes. I think it's fairly obvious that the people of north Korea would be better off if the north surrendered and the whole nation became Korea. You can't say the same in reverse. If south Korea surrendered and they all became the dprk, that would just make life worse for the people in south Korea.

I do agree that our sanctions approach is immoral and ineffective. In fact north Korea is the one thing I think Trump got right.

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 11:31 AM

I know the three dictators have inflicted horrors on the people and all that wasn’t necessary but it was a culmination of so many bad cards

the occupation from Japan / the cutting their country in half / how their cultural heritage reinforced a bad reaction to the situation / the Korean War / Russia and China in their heads / seeing the south sellout to Japan who were so unforgivably nasty and then things work out for the south and not them and the way their culture digests that kind of indignity

Then there’s the isolation and the propaganda and the fear and one of the worst famines of the 20th century

I mean damn maybe if the world just admitted hey we really ****ed up here

I know this is one of the least inarticulate posts I’ve ever made but maybe if the world came to them with a sense of humility instead of constant judgement. I get that it’s hard not to judge horrible dictators but so many ****ty things had to happen first for all that to fall into place.

At the least that famine in the nineties was a terrible failure for all of humanity not just them. We really ****ed up too. The blood is on our hands too. I always say that but it’s really true.

11-01-2020, 09:56 AM	#1033 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	Tbh when I’ve read about Mao and China it’s a crazy split: the destroying everything part sounds so joyous but then the we’re all happy workers let’s work work work for the revolution looks like the most miserable life imaginable I just like to fantasize about the tearing everything down part I don’t care if it doesn’t add up or it would make everything a million times worse or that I’d die I guess I have to admit those five year plans and all that seem miserable __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

11-01-2020, 10:01 AM	#1034 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	I’m not even sure if it was really Mao that got it going but the entire destroy the “four olds” thing was just fire. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

11-01-2020, 10:29 AM	#1036 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	My crush on China grew tremendously when I saw them contain the virus. I’m exhausted on defending them otherwise though. I know this is psychopathic and maybe people don’t believe it but I’d love to see them destroy America. I don’t care if it makes sense or not. I can’t stand this place. I know it’s like well why would you want something even worse. It takes a lot of hate to get there lol and a lot of crazy and probably a lot of drug abuse __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

11-01-2020, 10:34 AM	#1037 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	I also really feel sorry for North Korea because they were forced into total isolation imo The history of the occupation from Japan, then the split Like if North Korea was a schoolboy it would be like the teacher made him stand in the corner all ****ing year then everyone says why does this kid hate school? It’s hard for me to hate their dictators because I think it was an inevitable outcome of their situation __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

11-01-2020, 10:40 AM	#1038 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	Concerning the Nazis well there really isn’t anything more inclined to be entirely socialist or government run or communist or whatever term you want to use than the military. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

10-31-2020, 08:16 PM	#1031 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	It was definitely him and probably some of the rest of you

11-01-2020, 09:30 AM	#1032 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I don't think you endorsed Mao or Stalin outright, I think you sometimes gave some of their policies more credit than they deserve such as the 5 year plan and the great leap forward. It's a common talking point for Communists to cite the rapid industrialization under the 5 year plan as some sort of massive economic success story that shows the efficacy of a controlled economy. Richard Wolff does this imo. We've argued about it in the past. It's a disingenuous talking point imo because the way the 5 year plan essentially worked was to confiscate food stocks and export them to pay for the industrial machines necessary for industrialization. This does work, yes, but it works by starving millions of peasants in a short period of time because instead of that good going to feed the populace it's going to exports. The great leap forward was modeled after this and killed even more people with even less tangible results in terms of industrialization. So it was even more of a disaster. You can say people starve under capitalism too or that famines have happened in tsarist Russia, which is true, but that's whataboutism. The deaths in the holodomor are classed as a genocide because the rate and scale of the famine was massive compared to typical famines and was completely artificially induced by Stalins policies. And the fact that things have also been bad under capitalism or the tsar is not a good excuse for mass murder. I think the best argument you can make for the 5 year plan is that without that rapid industrialization Russia might not have been able to take on the Nazis and the Nazis might've won the war. But that is a rationalization using hindsight, since the Nazis weren't even in power during the 5 year plan and when they rose to power Stalin signed a deal with them and mutually annexed and invaded Poland. Obviously the deal wasn't going to last forever but Stalin was actually in shock when Hitler decided to invade Russia. He was banking on the fact that Hitler wouldn't start a 2 front war. Either way, no such argument can be made for the great leap forward. The extent to which Chinese communism has been a failure is the extent to which they modeled themselves on the USSR. The extent to which they are now economically successful is the extent to which they started distancing themselves from the Soviet model and embracing international trade.

11-01-2020, 10:11 AM	#1035 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I know exactly where your impulses lie but it's good to see you admit something like that tbh. Now take the same logic and apply it to modern China. They're more economically successful but even less defensible from your POV. They've moved further away from communism and are only nominally Communists now. They engage in international trade and they have a strict authoritarian government that is self justifying and increasingly nationalistic around the Han Chinese ethnicity. Sounds like fascism to me. People accuse Stalin of being a fascist... I don't think he was. I think he was a ruthless pragmatist. But the current regimes in China and NK could probably be properly identified as fascist regimes. Regardless of what they call themselves. Remember, the Nazis called themselves the national socialist workers party. The north Koreans call themselves the democratic people's republic of Korea. State titles mean nothing. It's propoganda.

11-01-2020, 11:31 AM	#1040 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	I know the three dictators have inflicted horrors on the people and all that wasn’t necessary but it was a culmination of so many bad cards the occupation from Japan / the cutting their country in half / how their cultural heritage reinforced a bad reaction to the situation / the Korean War / Russia and China in their heads / seeing the south sellout to Japan who were so unforgivably nasty and then things work out for the south and not them and the way their culture digests that kind of indignity Then there’s the isolation and the propaganda and the fear and one of the worst famines of the 20th century I mean damn maybe if the world just admitted hey we really **ed up here I know this is one of the least inarticulate posts I’ve ever made but maybe if the world came to them with a sense of humility instead of constant judgement. I get that it’s hard not to judge horrible dictators but so many ty things had to happen first for all that to fall into place. At the least that famine in the nineties was a terrible failure for all of humanity not just them. We really **ed up too. The blood is on our hands too. I always say that but it’s really true. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html