Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > The Lounge > Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-31-2018, 04:07 PM   #141 (permalink)
Fck Ths Thngs
 
DwnWthVwls's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultHawk View Post
That’s Sam Harris and Matt Dillahunty (had to google- I thought we might be closer to Kant and Foucault). I’ve listened to those guys and I’ve read Waking Up.

It seems like if morality equals well-being it’s going to be subjective depending on whose well-being.

For an atheist Harris gets pretty deep into woo when he starts up on enlightenment and meditation.



The justification part has to be loaded with subjective reasoning.

I don’t get how your ideas about this differ from elph’s or anyone’s really.

Sometimes I find your writing cryptic. I need **** spelled out to get it.
I'll try and find a video for you that will do a better job of explaining it than I can.

I don't disagree that justifcation has to be loaded with subjective reasoning, but that's not in conflict with what I'm saying.

If you approach morality the way I do there are truths within it. If I am faced with a situation where I either kill or be killed, and I kill, that doesn't make killing moral all of a sudden, it's justifiable though. If we agree that morality is based on well-being killing another person goes against well-being.

What use is morality to us if it's not consistent? If everyone can just feel however they want, what's the point of the discussion? I never said Elph was wrong, I only said I disagree. It's a complicated subject, and I'm not well educated in moral philosophy. I'm arguing on behalf of the things I've heard that make the most sense to me.
__________________
I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...
DwnWthVwls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:25 PM   #142 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 11,468
Default

Quote:
If you approach morality the way I do there are truths within it
Jordan Peterson says something very similar. It sounds great when heís talking but honestly Iím not sure what it means.

Quote:
What use is morality to us if it's not consistent?
Well we need some malleability over the centuries, donít we?

If there are universal moral truths can you name them? And then explain when immorality is justifiable?
__________________
2017 & 2018 Member of the Year Back2Back

experimental music on Spotify worth checking out

FREAK FIGHTER JOURNAL (Awarded 2018 Journal of the Year)

free jazz 2018 thread

Drone/Ambient Releases of 2018

OccultHawk Reviews Southern States

The government that governs best is the government whose members commit suicide.
OccultHawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:31 PM   #143 (permalink)
Fck Ths Thngs
 
DwnWthVwls's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,251
Default

Since you brought up Peterson (who I'm not a fan of), and I was already looking for a video here:

Watch from ~44m-53m.. also ~58m-1h1m


I just gave you an example of when immorality is justified: I kill someone in self defense.

The video answers your other questions, but if you want me to reiterate my understanding of it, lemme know.

Edit: Here, ill try anyway: Yes, it needs to be malleable. If we discover something that promotes well-being better than the current model it is adopted. An example of a universal moral truth is that taking a life is immoral because it is in direct conflict with well-being, assuming we agree the morality is based around well-being.
__________________
I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

Last edited by DwnWthVwls; 06-01-2018 at 09:15 PM.
DwnWthVwls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:31 PM   #144 (permalink)
.
 
grindy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: .
Posts: 6,226
Default

You summoned a wild Elph.
__________________
A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.
grindy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:34 PM   #145 (permalink)
subscribe to pewdiepie
 
Dharma & Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 36,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultHawk View Post
Jordan Peterson says something very similar. It sounds great when he’s talking but honestly I’m not sure what it means.



Well we need some malleability over the centuries, don’t we?

If there are universal moral truths can you name them? And then explain when immorality is justifiable?
I'm assuming he's talking about the basic concepts of thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, love thy neighbor, and whatever else society would destroy itself over if it didn't have those rules. Do the least amount of harm to the least amount of people seems like a pretty easy and obvious rule that you can't argue with. Plenty of wiggle room with legalese as the millennia have proven, but murder is still basically a universal no no so long as you don't complicate it with things like war and executions.

Basically the instincts all humans have that enable cooperative society to exist in the first place. Those are precepts that are so obvious that evolution has burned them into our brains. 1+1=2 morality.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin & Hobbes
To evaluate my character my immediate pleasure is being pitted against my future greed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle View Post
The Batlord is amazing man. He loves some fine woman and he gets horny easily. What is better than that.
Dharma & Greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:40 PM   #146 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 11,468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord View Post
I'm assuming he's talking about the basic concepts of thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, love thy neighbor, and whatever else society would destroy itself over if it didn't have those rules. Do the least amount of harm to the least amount of people seems like a pretty easy and obvious rule that you can't argue with. Plenty of wiggle room with legalese as the millennia have proven, but murder is still basically a universal no no so long as you don't complicate it with things like war and executions.

Basically the instincts all humans have that enable cooperative society to exist in the first place. Those are precepts that are so obvious that evolution has burned them into our brains. 1+1=2 morality.
Gramma done tole me I knows rights from wrongs

I hear you but once I get out of bed thereís so many ****ing angles itís all meaningless
__________________
2017 & 2018 Member of the Year Back2Back

experimental music on Spotify worth checking out

FREAK FIGHTER JOURNAL (Awarded 2018 Journal of the Year)

free jazz 2018 thread

Drone/Ambient Releases of 2018

OccultHawk Reviews Southern States

The government that governs best is the government whose members commit suicide.
OccultHawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 11:52 PM   #147 (permalink)
Put The Cult In Culture
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,689
Default

I always felt morality came from empathy. That which harms is wrong and that which helps is right.

In reality everything is really meaningless in the grand scheme of things and all that truly has any meaning is completely self contained meanings. So if you don't have any form of guilt or empathy and you really enjoy rape, then just go for it and pursue the things that mean something to you in this empty existence.

Edit: Because karma also does not exist, so if you don't feel any remorse and know how to escape societal punishment for following your passion of raping and torturing children you have absolutely nothing to fear and will live a completely fulfilled life with no consequences to your actions.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2018, 05:02 AM   #148 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 11,468
Default

Quote:
I always felt morality came from empathy. That which harms is wrong and that which helps is right.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
__________________
2017 & 2018 Member of the Year Back2Back

experimental music on Spotify worth checking out

FREAK FIGHTER JOURNAL (Awarded 2018 Journal of the Year)

free jazz 2018 thread

Drone/Ambient Releases of 2018

OccultHawk Reviews Southern States

The government that governs best is the government whose members commit suicide.
OccultHawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2018, 05:12 AM   #149 (permalink)
My Sorrow is Luminous
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,080
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls View Post

I just gave you an example of when immorality is justified: I kill someone in self defense.
but again, the killing is not immoral, if you've justified it with self defense

unless the justification was lousy

in either case the act of justifying is to say "this act was morally acceptable because..."
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

"That's the end of my life. The rest is posthumous."
elphenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2018, 05:23 AM   #150 (permalink)
My Sorrow is Luminous
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 9,080
Default

re: morality in general

I think it's certainly subjective however humans are moral animals, I think, universally in some fundamental ways that makes ideas like The Golden Rule almost absolute laws

however there are those that would not even accept that premise and their arguments are stronger than you might think

Chomsky takes the previous stated position on morality, Foucault, a true post-modernist, challenges that

__________________
Just another marketing ploy

"That's the end of my life. The rest is posthumous."
elphenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2019 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.