Is violence ever the answer?

grindy · 05-31-2018, 10:34 AM

Straight-up assassination is the only violence I could get behind.
Murdering some influential politician or leader can be a good thing. Sure it might strenghten the followers' resolve but some movements are lost without their chieftain.
Punching some sad Nazi **** or vandalizing some **** is just pathetic and accomplishes nothing except making the perpetrators feel like badass dudebros.

The Batlord · 05-31-2018, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

does the historical use of violence from The Black Panthers put them on the same level as the government that was oppressing them?

even if you can make the argument that the non-violence aspect of Civil Rights was much more effective, does it make the violence immoral?

now the difference is Richard Spencer has little power, sure, is that what makes violence unjustified? Do Nazis have to have a gun to your back before a punch to the face is justified?

it's at least a tough call imo

Spencer's lack of power is certainly a factor, and if the US government can rebel over taxes then black people can certainly rebel over hundreds of years of slavery, a century of Jim Crow and segregation, and blatant policies in both the private and public sectors that have kept them down to a degree that was and still is to an extent inhuman. But the level of disparity between the two scenarios makes the comparison ridiculous. Black people have had their lives and liberty so threatened that rebellion has throughout much if not all of their history in this country been an option that might only be inadvisable due to pragmatism.

But the alt-right do not currently represent a threat on a level anywhere near the horror of white-on-black tyranny or the Third Reich. Perhaps it's a gamble to allow them free reign considering the possibility of their philosophy rising to prominence at some point in the future, but I consider it a risk absolutely worth taking if it means that "our side" can evolve culturally by finally realizing that you shouldn't punch people who disagree with you.

Oh and just on that pragmatic level I was talking about the Black Panthers are or at least were to my knowledge hopelessly deluded. What the **** did they think they were going to accomplish by arming themselves and revolting against the government? We would have shot them dead in the street and any retaliation from the black community at large would have more than likely been put down with extreme prejudice and resulted in absolute Nazi crackdowns on an entire race which would have been seen as justified by the white majority due to their newfound terror of an apocalyptic race war.

OccultHawk · 05-31-2018, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the original Antifa used illegal actions and violence to oppose the Nazis before and after their rise to power

were they justified?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

I’m cool with Antifa because at least they’re ****ing trying.

I wish their were an underground anarchist movement that targeted CEOs and politicians.

Kaczynski is the most inspirational activist of my lifetime.

DwnWthVwls · 05-31-2018, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

again that's a different call as far as I see it

whether the violence is effective is different from whether you can morally justify it

Do you always lump justification and morality together? I don't see why you can't have circumstances that are both justified and immoral. Seems like something people do who want to feel good about themselves.

grindy · 05-31-2018, 10:49 AM

"Düül" is not a German word.

OccultHawk · 05-31-2018, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Straight-up assassination is the only violence I could get behind.
Murdering some influential politician or leader can be a good thing. Sure it might strenghten the followers' resolve but some movements are lost without their chieftain.
Punching some sad Nazi **** or vandalizing some **** is just pathetic and accomplishes nothing except making the perpetrators feel like badass dudebros.

Right. As in Kaczynski.

But you’re too dismissive of Antifa. They do put **** on the line.

grindy · 05-31-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Right. As in Kaczynski.

But you’re too dismissive of Antifa. They do put **** on the line.

I've been pretty involved in AntiFa groups in my late teens. Fun, but dumb and douchey.

The Batlord · 05-31-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I’m cool with Antifa because at least they’re ****ing trying.

I wish their were an underground anarchist movement that targeted CEOs and politicians.

Kaczynski is the most inspirational activist of my lifetime.

You know, considering how entrenched capitalism is in societies around the world, and how most people just accept the paradigm of working for a boss and dedicating their life to meaningless labor that pays the bills, I could maybe get behind such a movement. I don't see any change happening in people's perception of capitalism any time in anything resembling the near future so perhaps something as jaw dropping as Bill Gates getting gunned down in the middle of a shareholder's meeting, followed by Jeff Bezos getting car bombed, and then a strychnine poisoning death for whoever happened to be President at the time could change the dialogue to the point that people realized that they in fact didn't care and felt satisfaction that such ****s got what they deserved.

Or, you know, people might just be dumb and rally behind the oppressors.

OccultHawk · 05-31-2018, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Black Panthers are or at least were to my knowledge hopelessly deluded. What the **** did they think they were going to accomplish by arming themselves and revolting against the government?

Don’t underestimate how much influence on the public psyche these kind of theatrics can have. Creating a tiny seed of doubt on both sides about the permanence of the current power structure has to start with a van guard of radicalism. The results may not translate to simple cause and effect results in high school history books but you have to have a radical fringe that plants that seed of fear into the existing oppressor. And then the results of that can ripple.

It’s always taught that Nat Turner failed but I don’t think he did. I think he was the first wave of a movement that ultimately won.

Didn’t show it in that sissy movie but they chopped up ten white children and piled their body parts up for effect. It scared the **** out of whitey. Like 9/11 it said, we can touch you bitch.

The Batlord · 05-31-2018, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Don’t underestimate how much influence on the public psyche these kind of theatrics can have. Creating a tiny seed of doubt on both sides about the permanence of the current power structure has to start with a van guard of radicalism. The results may not translate to simple cause and effect results in high school history books but you have to have a radical fringe that plants that seed of fear into the existing oppressor. And then the results of that can ripple.

It’s always taught that Nat Turner failed but I don’t think he did. I think he was the first wave of a movement that ultimately won.

Didn’t show it in that sissy movie but they chopped up ten white children and piled their body parts up for effect. It scared the **** out of whitey. Like 9/11 it said, we can touch you bitch.

Again, if the Black Panthers had ever actually conducted organized, violent resistance against the white majority I don't think it would have resulted in anything other than solidifying white supremacy because now the fear of black violence would have a very real justification that would have set back race relations at least a hundred years. It wasn't the Black Panthers' radicalism that changed whitey's mind, it was MLK and Brown v. Board of Education. The Black Panthers reinforced us vs. them, but the peaceful protests reinforced the perception of black humanity.

05-31-2018, 10:34 AM	#81 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	Straight-up assassination is the only violence I could get behind. Murdering some influential politician or leader can be a good thing. Sure it might strenghten the followers' resolve but some movements are lost without their chieftain. Punching some sad Nazi ** or vandalizing some is just pathetic and accomplishes nothing except making the perpetrators feel like badass dudebros. __________________ A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.**

05-31-2018, 10:49 AM	#85 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	"Düül" is not a German word. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*