No Free Will

grindy · 04-04-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

He's the only one here that was able to provide information.

He didn't provide any information. The studies were about conscious vs. unconscious brain activity. Nothing to do with free will.

Lucem Ferre · 04-04-2019, 02:42 PM

If somebody throws a rock, why are you more upset with the person that threw it than you are with the rock?

Lucem Ferre · 04-04-2019, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

For free will to be meaningful and worth having a word to describe it it would have to give humans the ability to make decisions free of any kind of influence which amounts to breaking the laws of the universe. Ergo magic.

That proved nothing except that the brain is way complicated, yo.

So you think influence is the same as predetermination?

The Batlord · 04-04-2019, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

If somebody throws a rock, why are you more upset with the person that threw it than you are with the rock?

Because truly conceptualizing a universe without free will is basically soul death. If you truly absorb the idea that you're nothing but an automaton then I don't imagine you'd be able to continue going on. Cognitive dissonance in this case is for survival.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So you think influence is the same as predetermination?

Free will is the ability to get punched in the face and then punch the other person back, rewind time, get punched in the face and then write a novel or sing "La Macarena" or just punch back with your other arm. If you rewind infinitely but you still perform you same action after being punched then free will doesn't exist.

**Frownland** · 04-04-2019, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

For free will to be meaningful and worth having a word to describe it it would have to give humans the ability to make decisions free of any kind of influence which amounts to breaking the laws of the universe. Ergo magic.

What if free will is partial and a component of predetermination?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Free will is the ability to get punched in the face and then punch the other person back, rewind time, get punched in the face and then write a novel or sing "La Macarena" or just punch back with your other arm. If you rewind infinitely but you still perform you same action after being punched then free will doesn't exist.

Which brings us back to the falsifiability question.

**Marie Monday** · 04-04-2019, 02:58 PM

If free will existed would you guys voluntarily get yourselves into this discussion?

Lucem Ferre · 04-04-2019, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Because truly conceptualizing a universe without free will is basically soul death. If you truly absorb the idea that you're nothing but an automaton then I don't imagine you'd be able to continue going on. Cognitive dissonance in this case is for survival.

Free will is the ability to get punched in the face and then punch the other person back, rewind time, get punched in the face and then write a novel or sing "La Macarena" or just punch back with your other arm. If you rewind infinitely but you still perform you same action after being punched then free will doesn't exist.

Are you saying that we don't have free will because we can't rewind time or that we need to be able to rewind time to properly measure free will?

The concept of free will isn't easily defined but I think many people define it as being able to make a conscious decision. Where a rock isn't conscious, the thrower is so we hold the thrower accountable. Whether or not our decisions our predetermined never changes that they are still done consciously. You could argue that the influences prove that our will isn't free, you could argue the physical limitations we abide by prove that our will isn't free, or you could argue that free will exists but there are varying levels of freedom. You can't really prove it from either side and to pretend like you can is just pompous.

Edit: And no, it's not the same as theism, or magic or the ideas of souls because the concept in it's self doesn't make me feel special or give my life any meaning, Grindy.

The Batlord · 04-04-2019, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

What if free will is partial and a component of predetermination?

What does that even mean? TBH it sounds like you believe in predetermination too but you're obfuscating the idea in your head so that it becomes too complex for you to be able to deal with to protect your sense of self.

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Which brings us back to the falsifiability question.

I'm as confident in predetermination as I am that god doesn't exist. Are you this pedantic about your own god belief?

OccultHawk · 04-04-2019, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

oh but he's not really into free will there either I hear

Wolf!!!!

**Frownland** · 04-04-2019, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

What does that even mean? TBH it sounds like you believe in predetermination too but you're obfuscating the idea in your head so that it becomes too complex for you to be able to deal with to protect your sense of self.

If we're wired a certain way, is it possible to be wired to have the ability to choose between a set of standard responses to stimuli?

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I'm as confident in predetermination as I am that god doesn't exist.

Neat.

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Are you this pedantic about your own god belief?

Well, if someone said that science has proven that god doesn't exist, yes.

What evidence would compel you given that the premise is unfalsifiable on both ends? Is there a way to prove this on a scientific level apart from the aformentioned rewinding time scenario? I largely agree on a philosophical level but haven't taken that to the conclusion that predetermination is absolute.