Hong Kong and China
 

I've never really been up on Chinese history, past or current, but I've been watching a lot of Hong Kong movies recently and it's made me interested in Hong Kong itself, which has made Hong Kong one of the most interesting cities in the world to me right now. I don't know much about the history of Hong Kong under the British, but it sounds like they had something approaching freedom under them during their latter period of not really having the power to be true imperialist thugs, then in 1997 Hong Kong was given back to the Chinese with a stipulation that they'd have some kind of independent government for a further 50 years. And China has been encroaching, sometimes violently, on that agreement ever since.

It's just the craziest situation to be in. I live in a country that has a leader who may or may not be a generic brand fascist but who knows what the next election will bring, and the election after that will at least mean that that guy will be gone for good, so my brush with authoritarianism is confusing and possibly overblown, whereas Hong Kong has a date set on when they will fall under a completely repressive regime with no respect for freedom or human rights. I just can't imagine that ****. That's pure ****ing cyberpunk in a not funny at all way. There's a legit part of me that wants my country to protect their freedoms, not because I believe in American imperialism as a good thing, but I just feel awful when I think of the existential horror that Hong Kong citizens must feel when they think of the future.

What do other people have to say?

Hong Kong as we've known it is history and it's clearly a test case for Taiwan. Get ready for round three, folks.

At least Taiwan has treaties that theoretically protect them. All of Hong Kong's treaties agree that the world will stand by and watch as they're turned over to authoritarianism. I imagine the Taiwanese have hope for the future. Do Honk Kongers even have any hope?

No.

Bull**** bureaucracy aside, China has as much control over Hong Kong as it's ever going to get without straight up war. The people are already rioting over any small bill that would even only theoretically give the mainland more leverage.

China thought that they'd get over it. They haven't. If anything, the next generation is even more staunchly opposed to them than all the people who were freaking out in the '90s.

In the end, the people don't give a **** about treaties and political agreements. They just wanna do their thang without being erased for political dissent. If it comes down to it, they'll realign with England in a heartbeat.

Do you think China won't land troops? Do you think Hong Kong leadership won't align with mainland China and do their proxy bidding? I mean does China really care about turning Hong Kong into a warzone? Back in the day Hong Kong was an economic powerhouse China desperately wanted, but now they're just another big city with a lot of money, something China isn't in short supply of. Maybe it will matter more to China that the rest of the world sees one of their cities standing up to them.

lulzzz what would poor little ol China do then?


Not very relevant to the discussion but I visited Hong Kong in my twenties and it was a highlight of my life. Coolest ****ing place.


These days I think if you have a some money in your pocket life is just is good in Shanghai unless you’re a minority.

China has cameras all over the place and spies on everyone but so does London.

And regarding Taiwan. Taipei is the same thing. If you’re poor it sucks.

Oh wow they get to vote. Big ****ing deal. Beijing and Shanghai are better places to live. For sure Shanghai blows the **** out of Miami and Jacksonville.

And here's OH making sure that no one thinks his own country (i.e. his own experience) is any better than anyone else's cause that would infringe on his own relevance. I totally expected this because of course OH wants his own experience to be front and center in the misery wars.

Do you really think Hong Kong has a darker future than Virginia?

https://www.musicbanter.com/2061320-post19341.html

Who else commented?

Boy I always do love reading a thread in the Current Events, Philosophy, Religion, and Pissing Contests subforum of musicbanter.com.

https://www.musicbanter.com/2061315-post19338.html

Sudan, Mali

Those are places even worse than Florida. Hong Kongers have it better than Floridians on average and it’s going to stay that way.

Yes. Yes I do. Absolutely. I think America's oligarchy is subject to "the will of the people" in the sense that at the very least they can't shoot masses of people dead in the street or run them over with tanks without the public recoiling in horror and ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO VOTE THOSE OFFICIALS ASSOCIATED WITH IT OUT OF OFFICE CAUSE HOLY **** THAT'S A WAKE UP CALL YOU CAN'T IGNORE whereas China is proven to be immune to that. America has very serious problems but the vote is still only as toothless as is the public's attitude to care. China requires more engagement from the public to enact change because they don't even have what we have.

I think Mali has a darker future than Virginia as well tbh.

You Americans don't know how good you have it.

Who’s more likely to get shot in the streets an American or a Chinese person?

What does that have to do with Hong Kong?

I understand his basic point but I want him to write it out in a non-elph way so that we can all see him talk.

The same thing that they did when a regiment of Manchurians walked right into the capital and completely conquered them for almost three hundred years.

China has a history of underestimating smaller forces, and getting completely blitzed. I mean for ****s sake, a ragtag group of starving commies managed to **** all over the well armed and foreign backed federalists, and sent them running off to Taiwan like little bitches.

A UK/Hong Kong tag team would John Woo those mother****ers right into the next century.

Haven't they abducted some already?


One's a country, one's a city; and the latter's more likely concerned about real crime.


What of other US cities?


Yup.


Hard to say as the reds might be cooking the stats, and aren't they into stabbing?

Moreover, the murder rate in the US is likely < 6/100 000: a multiple of China's, but likely pretty low.




What it looks like to me:

1. UK's out of the picture. They made a decent deal given the circumstances. They leased it in, what?, 1899?, for 99 years, from a long gone mostly unmissed emperor. The jig was coming up in 1998, and in, what?, 1984?, worked out a deal for 50 years. Economics helped. It might help again with Trump and perhaps more so the corruption inherit under likely increased corruption under Xi. The time for the commies to mess up HK is not now. But Hong Kong will slowly become Communist before 2047. Time to emigrate.

2. Taiwan is standing firm. I wonder if it has nukes: such would be good aces.

3. If China gets aggressive, it's neighbours might react, including Japan by increasing military size.

*cough*

They stopped trying to be communist after millions of people starved to death.

Actually the great leap forward is typically considered not only an atrocity but a massive failure. The economy shrank. Only very modest progress was made in terms of industrializing compared to the massive hit it caused on agriculture which obviously brought the famines.

Marx's communist Utopia was always supposed to take place in an industrialized society. In fact, it was supposed to come about as the result of industrialization. So I think there was certainly an idealogical component at play.

In the case of the Soviets I know for a fact Russian Marxists had long since tried and failed to radicalize the rural peasants, and saw an industrial society with a strong proletariat class as essential to carrying out their vision of creating a successful communist society.

the best thing it did for them was to convince them to ditch collectivisation and go with the global capitalist market.

They could've competed without collective farming killing 30 million people. They didn't even gain much in the way of industrializing through that effort. When they opened themselves up to the international market they industrialized way more rapidly.

The whole reason they ditched it is cause it failed.

They still use Central planning to one extent or another.

But this conversation was about the great leap forward specifically.

I believe a big part of what made them competitive is actually just having tons of cheap/free labor to exploit.

I don't think what they have qualifies as a command economy.

That's closer to fascism economically, isn't it?

Hong Kong v Beijing tennis tournament

https://scontent.fsan1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...45&oe=5DC9FD26

This is kinda a touchy subject for me because some of my ancestors were Chinese... Before I analyze this topic directly, let me tell you some relevant points from the top of my head... I am proud of my Chinese heritage... The Chinese have contributed so much to this world (and they continue to contribute to this planet.) Think about it: medicine, advancements in science, food, technology, kung fu, gun powder, sports, arts, music... I could go on and on... Then I think of Chinese celebrities like Jet Li and the modern rapper Aquafyna (Ironically, I don't know how to spell her name.) But I look at Chinese culture and I think to myself that Chinese culture is very gangsta and hardcore. Chinese people make up one-fifth of humanity. Please excuse my Russian; don't worry - censorship will follow me... There is an important lesson in history: Do not f**k with Chinese culture. Trying to mess with Chinese people is kinda like trying to mess with a sleeping Giant. It's like trying to use a stick to take on a hornet's nest.

Then I look at Hong Kong... Hong Kong is kinda like the daughter of China. Hong Kong has successfully mixed capitalism with socialism. Hong Kong knows that it is great and beautiful but, at the same time, it does not show off. It is very humble and respectful of other islands, and that's the cool thing about Hong Kong. The reason that Hong Kong is one of the most successful places in Asia is the fact that its people have been able to fuse Chinese culture with British culture.

I know that I speak a lot of mumbo jumbo but the bottom line is I hope that China and Hong Kong will be able to come to a mutual agreement. In life, human beings obviously do argue with each other. Why? Because they CARE about each other! But eventually, they will come down to a peaceful mutual agreement... Hopefully, China and Hong Kong will both come to a mutual agreement (a compromise, if you will...) My suggestion and this is only my suggestion: Let Hong Kong keep its capitalistic independence. Let Hong Kong function under capitalist rule. But the Chinese will get something in return... A portion of Hong Kong's land will be used for Chinese military training (yes, led by the communist government.) And another portion of Hong Kong's land will be used for the Chinese communist basketball team (because I know how much Chinese people love their basketball team...) Hong Kong has some very good territory that is essential for Olympic training. The moral of this story is: China needs Hong Kong and Hong Kong needs China.

Why?

China protects Hong Kong. China actually gives Hong Kong a hardcore image. If Hong Kong were to stand by itself, people wouldn't really care about Hong Kong. But when Hong Kong stands with China, people actually recognize and respect the power of Hong Kong. You cannot deny the power and influential history of China...

I want to ban RL Clown so bad. Every post and I'm like, well, today is the day.

Please don't.

Why? Because I actually speak with logic and good reasoning? I am 100% mature and I type very politely... Perhaps I could school you... Some people hate me out of jealousy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLhZ52vVK-I
i dont hate ya :o:

From what? The Mongols?