Russia, Ukraine and World War III

emotutu · 03-01-2022, 08:30 AM

US is responsible for war...

TheBig3 · 03-01-2022, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emotutu

US is responsible for war...

The Left can't accurately assess this war because it's entire position for the last 100 years has been "all problems are a result of Western aggression."

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Originally Posted by Exo

That's some pseudo intellectual bullsh*t. Taking out tanks is much harder.

I wish we could like posts.

The Batlord · 03-01-2022, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

The Left can't accurately assess this war because it's entire position for the last 100 years has been "all problems are a result of Western aggression."

I wish we could like posts.

Not all the left. Just some dip****s on the left. I mean it's understandable if some leftists never move on from "America bad" even if it's frustrating as hell and makes them analytically useless.

TheBig3 · 03-01-2022, 11:35 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

the opposite take that there are just evil nations acting independent of any global influence is equally naive though

Putin has good reason to see Ukraine potentially joining NATO as an expansion of Western power (particularly the US) because it is

this doesn't justify the atrocities being committed, and Putin may very well be losing it...but given the US track record on human rights when it doesn't serve our goals of complete global dominance, let's not be totally naive about this

I'm not. The U.S. should be funneling in provisions and weapons to the Ukraine by all means possible.

But I don't think Russia is a bad country.

The Batlord · 03-01-2022, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the opposite take that there are just evil nations acting independent of any global influence is equally naive though

Putin has good reason to see Ukraine potentially joining NATO as an expansion of Western power (particularly the US) because it is

this doesn't justify the atrocities being committed, and Putin may very well be losing it...but given the US track record on human rights when it doesn't serve our goals of complete global dominance, let's not be totally naive about this

Duh another country joining NATO strengthens NATO. Just like Ukraine being in Russia's sphere of influence strengthens Russia. All those former Soviet states joined NATO for a reason and Russia isn't willing to give Georgia or Ukraine the option to choose for a reason. Of course hegemonic powers are going to try to undermine each other but America absolutely had no need to put in Putin's head that he should dominate Ukraine. Russia wants to do that America or no America.

TheBig3 · 03-01-2022, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

there's an implicit coercion when it comes to NATO though because of the economic dominance

self-determinism as long as everything you decide aligns with US priorities

Let's assume that's true. Which nation would you rather be beholden to?

The Batlord · 03-01-2022, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

there's an implicit coercion when it comes to NATO though because of the economic dominance

self-determinism as long as everything you decide aligns with US priorities

There's coercion in Russia's sphere of influence as well, and if you're Ukraine I imagine the coercion that didn't involve hundreds of years of occupation, the holodomor, and the ever present threat of invasion probably sounds a lot better, especially if it gives you protection from all of the above.

~~jwb~~ · 03-02-2022, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Duh another country joining NATO strengthens NATO. Just like Ukraine being in Russia's sphere of influence strengthens Russia. All those former Soviet states joined NATO for a reason and Russia isn't willing to give Georgia or Ukraine the option to choose for a reason. Of course hegemonic powers are going to try to undermine each other but America absolutely had no need to put in Putin's head that he should dominate Ukraine. Russia wants to do that America or no America.

The main way Ukraine strengthens nato is by threatening and/or weakening Russia. Where as the Russian empire is more or less hopeless without the Ukraine. The difference in strategic value here is staggering.

The Batlord · 03-03-2022, 06:29 AM

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Originally Posted by jwb

The main way Ukraine strengthens nato is by threatening and/or weakening Russia. Where as the Russian empire is more or less hopeless without the Ukraine. The difference in strategic value here is staggering.

1. Who ****ing cares? You aren't owed client states.

2. Russia's relative weakness is why they have less control over there sphere of influence and have a tendency to roll in with tanks. Hence the former Soviet republics wanting NATO protection.

rubber soul · 03-04-2022, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Chomsky's take is right on, (as per usual)

there's obviously no excuse for the atrocity Russia is committing, however, it could have been prevented if US foreign policy was actually committed to peace

I won't argue your take on US foreign policy but I don't think anyone could have prevented Putin save maybe the Russians themselves.

03-01-2022, 08:30 AM	#1 (permalink)
emotutu Groupie Join Date: Mar 2022 Location: Florida Posts: 3	US is responsible for war...