Don

I don't recall ever saying I was a prog fan, I'm mainly a prog-metal fan/expert. But I do somewhat like King Crimson, PF, Genesis. So that was rather nasty calling me a fraud, I mainly review prog-metal albums.

I'm well aware of how many people love CTTE, hence why I think it's one of the most overrated prog pieces of all time.

And I never gave a reason why it's terrible 'cause that's just my opinion of course; it bores me to death like most of their stuff. And I don't find them all that interesting musically either.

CTTE just strings along starting off almost moronically, and awkwardly goes into a pointless session to show how cool they are playing in weird keys together, and just plods along doing almost nothing except for extremely annoying repetitions of "I get up, I get down." God, shoot me now.

Btw, I couldn't help but rofol times 100 at this part:

boo boo

Symphonic Prog >>> Prog Metal.

I'd like to see your list of the greatest prog pieces ever made...I could use a good laugh right about now.

I pity you then....As a band they are way more diverse than DT, and they rarely repeat themselves like DT do, every album they made was different...DTs songs could be on any album, its just random rubbish.

Do you realise how f*cking hypocritical this is coming from a goddamn DREAM THEATER fan?

Regardless CTTE is still Far more focused and ambitious than anything DT has ever done....Yes have made at least 5 classic albums, at least 8 other really good ones, 5 ok albums and maybe 2 or 3 bad ones...DT have made what?...Like one or two ok albums and nothing but pure rubbish since 1992....Yes and KC have both been around for over 36 f*cking years, and they are still coming up with some fresh and cool ideas, while DT are still young and already drained completely out of creativity, and they get noticably worse album after album.

You cant argue with me on this, Yes are better than DT in every way, except maybe technical skill, but to hell with technical skill, i would like to see Petrucci construct a solo as beautiful as Mood For A Day or The Clap, or the solos in Starship Trooper, America, Gates Of Delirium and Going For The One...I would like to hear Myung write a bassline as interesting and spellbinding as the ones in Roundabout and Tempus Fugit...I would like to hear Rudess write a simple piano solo as gorgious as the one in South Side Of The Sky or a keyboard performance as brillant and tasteful as the one in Heart Of The Sunrise.

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Don

I have a feeling I pity you a lot more. Random rubbish? Each DT album has a completely different theme...oh wait, you're joking, oops.

Yeah that's why I said it, but in all honesty I don't find any DT solo to be wank, because they put their heart into it and you can feel how much power they convey with each note. And with the intro session in CTTE, to me it's like they don't really care what notes they are playing.

If by focus and ambitious you mean boring **** and pointless wank, then ok. I love around 90% of DT's tracks, and I think Awake is the only below average album, but you said Yes made 2 or 3 bad ones?? rofl, you just walked right into that one.

Wtf? Argue with you? This is the so called 'argument:'

You - "I like Yes and dislike DT, and DT are even suckier 'cause Yes are their influences."

Me - "Oh yeah, well I like DT and dislike Yes and I don't care about influences because it's immaterial when it comes to taste."

What a fantastic argument you got going there.

I find it almost hysterical that you said "Yes are better than DT in every way, except maybe technical skill, but to hell with technical skill," because you're arguing about everything you can't measure except technical ability, and we both agree DT are better in that department! rofl.

I find even Pertucci's worst solos to be better than any of that crap you mentioned. And you don't find Myung's bass lines to be 'spellbinding' or interesting? That's fine, but don't try and say that “Roundabout” is any good in comparison and keep a straight face at the same time.

As for Rudess and simple and gorgeous, I think his work in "One Last Time," is probably the best example there, and unlike your examples, it doesn't send me into a fit and rage because of its lameness.

boo boo

Dont kid yourself, im dead serious...Yes have made the transition from Pyschedelic Rock to Prog to New Wave to Pop and back to Prog again...And they always remained successful, and like many great bands they have endured some really bad times and still managed to come back on top, plus they have influenced bands as disperate as ELP, Rush, Queen, Iron Maiden, Janes Addiction, Primus, Muse, Mars Volta and Red Hot Chili Peppers and even Led Zeppelin has called Yes a influence on their 70s work, you can hear a lot of it on their Houses Of The Holy album and tracks like Battle Of Evermore, also band members have contributed for other great artists like David Bowie, Black Sabbath, King Crimson, Queen, Tangerine Dream, Badfinger, Cat Stevens, John Lennon and Elton John...Yes pretty much brought progressive rock to the spotlight in the early 70s, their importance to the genre is only matched by King Crimson and argubly Pink Floyd...And DT?...Whats their legacy?...Going from wanky prog metal to wankier prog metal to super wankier prog metal to super duper wankier prog metal?...Wow, thats diversity.

Another very hypocritical statement, have you read the album sleeve to Close To The Edge?...The band knew exactly what they were doing and made it pretty clear, they were going for a very trippy, out of this world kind of experience, and they succeded...I dont think Petrucci has ever really summed up what DT were about, at least while being completely honest...The truth is Dream Theaters music never has a direction, at least Yes know the meaning of the word Try.

The only truely horrible album Yes did was Talk... Union and Open Your Eyes were mediocre but they still had their moments...Tormato wasnt great but nowhere near as bad as some critics make it out to be...And you are wrong, Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence and Train Of Thought were boring pieces of crap, also.

Magification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Octavarium.

I would rather listen to The Ladder than anything from DT, and thats one of my least favorite Yes albums.

But its still not worth arguing that Yes are a way more original and important band than Dream Theater could ever be.

No i said maybe for a reason...Rick Wakeman and Tony Kaye are both better than Jordan Rudess, and they have worked with more musicians than i can count...Bill Bruford is better than Mike Portnoy and thats not even worth arguing...I wont deny that Petrucci is more technicaly skilled than Steve Howe, but i have never heard a riff from him that was half as good as the one in Siberian Khatru, and Howe can still play solos that are off the wall, Soundchaser and Yours Is No Disgrace for example, plus he has a great tone variety, Petrucci's tones can be so bland, i also consider Tony Banks and Trevor Rabin to be more interesting guitar players than Petrucci...And John Myung and Chris Squire are close skillwise, Myung might have the edge, but as far as greatness is concerned he is nothing compared to Squire, Squire is one of the most innovative and important bass players of the past 30 years, his individual influence far exceeds that of every other Yes member, Myung is but a mere mortal in comparison...Plus every Yes song (even the bad ones) has a interesting bassline, i cant say the same for Dream Theater...Also Jon Anderson and Trevor Horn are both better singers than James Labrie, hell Steve Howe is a better singer than Labrie and hes horrible.

Its a great bassline, basslines like that were unheard of back in those days, its not super technical like many of Myungs lines, but its still more interesting than anything from DT...His bass playing on Yours Is No Disgrace, Heart Of The Sunrise, The Fish, America and Close To The Edge is godly, those performances are not just something anyone can pull off.

You think Wakemans keys on South Side Of The Sky and Roundabout are lame?...Pathetic....Listen to Hunky Dory with David Bowie, Wakeman is a virtuoso keyboardist.

Yes can make a song thats over 20 minutes long and still keep me interested until the end, DT could make a 6 minute song and i would fall asleep midway through, thats how boring they are...And as far as songwriting is concerned, Dream Theater could never ever make a song as catchy and creative as I've Seen All Good People.

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Don

Their legacy is their amount of fans and their contribution to prog-metal. At any rate, I don't know about you, but I like bands for their music, and not their status on any basis. It's pretty sad if you like a band just because of how many bands they've influenced.


DT have always had a direction in every album they've created, hence the variety, I can't remember what MP exactly said so you can look it up if you want.

ToT is one of the greatest prog-metal albums ever and one I play often, I don't think it's possible to like prog-metal and hate that album at the same time, it's just that good.

Octavarium was a bit of a gamble and it paid off for the most past. The title track is breathtaking.

Originality and importance are both irrelevant to me in liking my bands, although DT are far from unoriginal.

Oh give me a break with anyone being better than Rudess already! Wakeman is a bloody hack even though he is skilled. I can't help but lol at his silly fast show-off solos that just repeat over and over - he puts no heart into it whatsoever from what I hear. It's like "look at me everyone, I can play several keyboards at once and hit the same key over and over really fast, I'm so cool!"

MP isn't so great but like I've said before, he contributes to the music a lot more than most drummers in the business, and that includes Bruford.

Now that's a tragedy.

Petrucci has never played a bland note in his life, bland is the perfect word to describe every musical element from Yes.

lol. As a side note, did you click my link forwarding to Hollow Years L@B?

Yes, Myung isn't a recognised bassist, hence why I say he's vastly underrated. His bass lines aren't always top-notch but there's no way you can say every Yes song has an interesting bass line without being biased, that's just silly. Most of the bass is just following the root note and doing little exploring while Myung often keeps up with Petrucci's intensity.

Anderson is one of the worst singers in the history of prog, and even some Yes fans would agree with me here. I can understand for someone to say "LaBrie sings like a girl," but I would fail to comprehend it if someone listened to "Another Day" or "Surrounded" and said LaBrie can't sing - that's almost as bad as saying Rudess can't play.

I agree with the 'unheard of back in those days part' somewhat, but once again, I don't care about the past. Music evolved and the bass lines of today are much more interesting than in any old school prog track.

I have heard every Yes album and have certainly heard a lot of Bowie, so I'm obliviously aware of Wakeman's talent. I've already explained my dislike for him up there.


I swear to God, no one in the world could pay me enough money to force me to sit through a 20+ min Yes epic. On the other side of the coin, DT have made timeless epics with "A Change of Seasons" (arguably the best Prog metal track ever) and "Octavarium."

MURDER JUNKIE

How many more weeks is this going to go on??

You two have to be the most pig headed people to ever enter these forums, either get a room or both of you need to heed the words of the immortal Malcolm X:


This is probably one of the reasons RAR is leaving, there are probably over 20 pages of this senseless pissing contest over two bands that 98% of MB would never listen to. Use PM's and maybe you can change each other's minds that way, please spare the rest of the community

boo boo

You say it like im the only one who Don gets into big arguements with.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

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DontRunMeOver

Please do. There doesn't seem to be much soul in prog-anything as it is and right now you two are truly draining the already drought-struck well.

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boo boo

How so?

You could say the same about classical music if you really think all music that dosent rely on great vocals or lyrics lacks emotion...And how can you say a band cant be emotional instrumentaly?

I know emotion and soul is all based on opinion, i can understand that some people like Dream Theater and i can understand that some people dont like Yes.

But i cant understand how someone could hate Yes and love Dream Theater, its way beyond my capability of understanding.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

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DontRunMeOver

To me, all prog music I've heard (apart from Queen, depending on whether you want to call that prog or not) was a musical equivalent of an idiot sitting a philosophy exam. All pretention, concept and pseudo-cleverness. My biggest problem with it, though, is how badly structured most prog is. Ok, by most I mean, the music I've heard in the prog genre, which put me off wanting to hear much more.

In classical music, as the analogous example you mentioned, there are changes in key, tempo, texture etc. all over the place, but these changes are carried off (in the good compositions) so well that you hardly notice they have occured. The mood of the music changes but, unless you're really trying to figure it out, you often don't know why. This isn't the case in most of the prog I've heard, where the key/tempo changes are usually very abrupt, clumsy and ugly. Music can be clever, but sound raw and instinct and while prodding your emotions the whole time. Music that SOUNDS clever is, in my opinion, a level below music which hides how clever it is.

Having said that, I'm aware that I haven't listened to as much prog as I have many other genres, so there are doubtless subtleties to it that I've missed. Because I didn't like it. I do like Rick Wakeman - from having been taken to his concert by my dad once - but the few YES songs I've heard really didn't do it for me and, from what I've heard, this probably means that I would not go much on other prog bands.

Oh, I do like the Mars Volta too. Are they prog? I like them because they're nuts.

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