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Old 05-21-2008, 08:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Right, we clearly have different interpretations of the music. And again, I didn't say all of the songs were complete rip offs, I pointed that out rather clearly in my post. And there was no copying and pasting from anywhere, although I have done my research over the years to support my arguments. However, if you want more examples I found these here (didn't even know about some of them):

Led Zeppelin

# "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
# "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
# "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
# "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
# "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
# "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
# "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
# "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
# "Moby ****" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.
# "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
# "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
# "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

And I don't have the time or the desire to go and hunt down other examples.

I am very familiar with the 8 and 12 bar blues and the blues scale. I love the blues, it's one of my favorite genres of music. Anything from Son House to Mississippi John Hurt to Reverend Gary Davis, etc. I love and enjoy listening to.

You can't complain about not being able to see examples and then get upset when some are posted. Let's keep the discussion civil, no need for animosity or name calling.
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:19 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Man. This is fun. That link is complete garbage.

Quote:
# "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
Again, I already addressed the fact that Zeppelin covered songs but didn't credit the writers, as lowdown as that was, fair is fair. This IS a cover, not a ripoff. Even so, it sounds VERY different from both Bredons version and the Joan Baez version. The riff is not the same, and Plants vocal style is quite a different take on it.

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# "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
Yeah the intro and outro are uncredited covers. Everything inbetween is entirely original, and thats the part of the song thats freaking awesome.


Quote:
# "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
Now this is just a bullcrap shot in the dark comparison based on a very generic use of simple chords. I don't hear the similarites at all myself. This is one of the best examples of Zep haters getting desperate.

So yeah, thats how people come to the conclusion that Communication Breakdown is a stolen song, based entirely on two riffs that don't even sound alike, and what else was "stolen" you might ask? Nothing. Entirely original song. Just happens to have a similar title and thats probably where people came to the conclusion that the song is influenced by it somehow. Curse you Led Zeppelin, stealing the word "breakdown", how dare you?

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# "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
Once again, only the lyrics.

Quote:
# "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
Its actually a medley of different blues songs.

Never mind that its one of the worst songs Zep ever did.

Quote:
# "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
Nay. Its not really a cover, just inspired by it. The riff and beat sure ass hell aren't the same. And thats what drives the song. And all they stole from The Hunter were lyrics. Hmm... I see a pattern here.

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# "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
Its a traditional song as in the writer is unknown, who in the hell are they gonna credit?

I guess they mean they should have called it "traditional", and that they should, yet another example of an uncredited cover, not a ripoff.

And I think I've already explained that Zeppelins covers are almost always radically different from the original songs. They make everything their own.

Quote:
# "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
Nope. Not a cover. They took the lyrics (lol) and yes the riff that comes in at 1:28 is clearly a homage to the song. And thats what it is, a homage. Bands can't pay homages? Then All You Need is Love is a ripoff of She Loves You, by that logic.

Quote:
# "Moby ****" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.


Whoever wrote this is just making crap up now. Its NOT a cover. The riff does sound pretty similar to Watch Your Step by Bobby Parker which is NOT a cover of The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair by Sleepy John Estes. Moby D*ck is not related to that song at all, Page simply used the riff before in a song from the BBC sessions called The Girl I love, I don't think its even a Sleepy John cover, dumbasses couldn't even get their facts straight. The riff to I Feel Fine by The Beatles also sounds very damn similar to it, just as much as the Moby D*ck riff does.

Maybe Page did steal this riff, unfortunately so did John Lennon. Small world eh?

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# "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
Wrong, just the lyrics, AGAIN, just the lyrics.

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# "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
Lyrics you say?

Quote:
# "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."
They guys apparrently cant tell the difference between influence and covers. Its not a cover.

Quote:
And I don't have the time or the desire to go and hunt down other examples.

I am very familiar with the 8 and 12 bar blues and the blues scale. I love the blues, it's one of my favorite genres of music. Anything from Son House to Mississippi John Hurt to Reverend Gary Davis, etc. I love and enjoy listening to.

You can't complain about not being able to see examples and then get upset when some are posted. Let's keep the discussion civil, no need for animosity or name calling.
Look I'm not insulting you here, a little angry sure. But you're saying stuff without checking your facts, and you're citing sources that are biased and incredibly inaccurate, that site got a lot of things wrong. Sorry but I call bull**** when you pick an argument with me and can't back up your claims with any real facts.

Last edited by boo boo; 05-21-2008 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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@boo boo: stop it

Why give any credence to these people.

Zeppelin haters are typically not like Jackhammer who just doesn't enjoy their music, most feel the need to try to discredit the band by using those same tired exaggerated accounts.

Let's get this thread back on track.

The topic for discussion is Led Zeppelin IV; make a case for or against it as a classic album, otherwise provide a counterpoint to another posters take.

If we are done with this discussion the next album is Astral Weeks; same charge to you people.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:18 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JayJamJah View Post
@boo boo: stop it

Why give any credence to these people.

Zeppelin haters are typically not like Jackhammer who just doesn't enjoy their music, most feel the need to try to discredit the band by using those same tired exaggerated accounts.
Stop what? I'm done. Sorry for going off topic. But I just hated how he used such an uncredible source to try and prove a point. I had to inform him of his mistakes. Just had to nip that thing in the bud.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boo boo View Post

Look I'm not insulting you here, a little angry sure. But you're saying stuff without checking your facts, and you're citing sources that are biased and incredibly inaccurate, that site got a lot of things wrong. Sorry but I call bull**** when you pick an argument with me and can't back up your claims with any real facts.
Did they or did they not take stuff from most of those songs I posted? You yourself pointed out similarities, riffs, and lyrics that were taken from other songs. I don't know why you keep saying I'm not bringing forward any real proof. Plus you can't really bring bias into this, because you are judging the songs with strong Led Zeppelin bias. All I want to do is admit that Led Zeppelin tended to take parts of songs or adapt songs from other artists and then not give them credit for it. It's as simple as that.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:22 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boo boo View Post
Whoever wrote this is just making crap up now. Its NOT a cover. The riff does sound pretty similar to Watch Your Step by Bobby Parker which is NOT a cover of The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair by Sleepy John Estes. Moby D*ck is not related to that song at all, Page simply used the riff before in a song from the BBC sessions called The Girl I love, I don't think its even a Sleepy John cover, dumbasses couldn't even get their facts straight. The riff to I Feel Fine by The Beatles also sounds very damn similar to it, just as much as the Moby D*ck riff does.
Good grief. What IS wrong with these people? As you say, it's a freakin' VARIATION of a guitar lick! EVERYBODY in the 60s bloody well played variations of some guitar lick that was itself invented by a Blues artist like Bobby Parker etc. Most riffs in popular music are variations of some way earlier idea. That's not called ripping off or plagiarism. That's about as idiotic as claiming that it's a rip-off to re-use a drum beat. What a bunch of tards.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:45 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wayfarer View Post
Covering a song and taking credit for writing it, however, is plagiarism, regardless of how different from the original it may sound.
Yes, certainly I agree that that is plagiarism. As for adapting/creating a variation of a well-known guitar lick, that's no more plagiarism than using a drumbeat or a fill.
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Strummer521 View Post
Alfred...you need to beef up your statements. Twice, you say that the music "gets angrier." Maybe you could describe what actually happens in the song that leads you to interpret certain moments as "angrier" than others. Describe the music just as much as your reaction to it.
I mean, the song gets more intense. The guitars get thicker, the music gets faster, and Strummer/Jones/Whoever sings in that particular song's voice becomes more passionate.
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:49 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wayfarer View Post
Covering a song and taking credit for writing it, however, is plagiarism, regardless of how different from the original it may sound.

And what's with this "oh, it's just the lyrics" shite? Plagiarizing lyrics is still plagiarizing.

Oh, and I'm not a "Zep hater", if that's what it seems like. I think they're sometimes given more credit than they deserve and I never really listen to them anymore seeing as I've heard virtually their entire discography on the radio at least 75 times (and I hardly even listen to the radio), but I don't "hate" them. I think some of the criticism they receive is ridiculous. For instance, "Jimmy Page was such a sloppy guitarist." Who ****ing cares? Tons of blues guitarists had sloppy technique, including, oh, what's that one guy...oh yeah, Jimi Hendrix. Being sloppy doesn't inherently mean that you're a bad guitar player.

However, I don't understand what's so horribly wrong with the plagiarism accusations. I can't even see why people try to defend the band. It's fairly obvious to me that they did steal a good bit of material. I mean, hell, were they not successfully sued a couple of times for it? The avid LZ fans who can't seem to admit that the band ever did any wrong try to justify it with bullshit like, "Oh, well everyone was stealing riffs in the '60s," but that's not true at all. I'm sure a handful of other '60s bands did lift a riff or two, but I can't think of anyone who plagiarized to the extent that Led Zeppelin did. Things like the intro to Stairway To Heaven are arguable, sure, but on several occasions the band covered songs and took full credit for writing them, and that's plagiarism. It's not even debatable.
By the way, I totally agree with the main gist of your argument about Zep. I just think it's silly how some people in general get so obsessive about rip-offs that they'll claim a variation on a fookin' guitar lick is a rip-off, while it just isn't. Musical development has been all about adapting other people's ideas and motifs for centuries. That's how music changed and moved on - in lots of very little steps. Even Zep's cases of blatant plagiarism somehow lead to a wider development within popular music.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Yeah, Taurus by Spirit was pretty awful, aside from the riff. Stairway To Heaven was ten times better.
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