Bass level overkill rant.

Daktari · 02-18-2010, 06:06 PM

This is a 'Hi Jack'

Whatever I might think or you might think of U2 is not important here. I was just using them as an example of the bass too loud in the mix so it drowned out what most folks were there to hear.

We are in agreement that some music styles need a prominent bass line, reggae being an obvious example. Thing is, when I was lucky enough to see the Wailers playing in a local bar in Chattanooga, the bass was well loud! But, when the vocals were happening or a guitar solo, it was mixed well and because they were good musicians, left enough space so it was obvious there was a solo or vocal going on.

Thing is, when you listen to an album of recorded music, whatever the style, someone as taken the trouble to get a decent mix down on record. This means you can hear all the instruments, especially the vocal and the solo parts. I guess I'm mainly commenting on the poor live mix quality and the presumption that everyone wants this bass biased muddy sound.

Or, maybe half of them are deaf and can't hear it properly themselves...

Gordon.

Violent & Funky · 02-18-2010, 08:27 PM

I get what you are saying about kids and their sub-woofers, and I also understand that getting a proper mix in a live setting is very important. But I was wondering if you have any examples for us from the record studio of a song which suffers from this bass disease?

Daktari · 02-19-2010, 06:10 AM

Good Friday morning to all,

V.F. Maybe I gave the wrong impression but what I'm saying is that although engineers and mixing experts get a good mix on the record, it is the way the music is re-produced mainly in a live concert situation or as the example of the kids in their cars that I'm talking about.

There is a definate obsession for overkill on the bass side on the reproduction of the recorded music. If I play a Gregory Isaacs cd at home and turn it up, the bass is gonna be loud. That's the way it was meant to be. However, I can still hear the vocal track and all the top end percussiony stuff going on. That's what makes it good to listen to. Then, if I go to a concert and the bottom end is so overpowering that all that intricate percussion , the guitar, the vocals, etc, etc, are lost in the muddy bass, then I'm gonna be disapointed.

The young guy I mentioned earlier with his boom, boom, car set up summed up this obsession or trend when he told me he just bought music nowadays that he knew would give him that heavy, deep bass when he turned it up in his car. All his recent collection of music was based on that..

To me, that's just a shame because choosing your music based on that ruling is a move away from music itself. He might as well go and listen to a bunch of guys building a road, cos they can sound pretty loud and bassy too.

Have a great weekend, Gordon.

mr_weed · 02-19-2010, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer

I would say it's a good thing that both Bono and The Edge are drowned out by bass.

It'd be a lot better if we just drowned them!

saddle_sore · 02-19-2010, 08:33 AM

Loudness Wars for sure - over compression and generally bad mixing

Daktari · 02-19-2010, 08:48 AM

Quote:
I would say it's a good thing that both Bono and The Edge are drowned out by bass.

Quote:
It'd be a lot better if we just drowned them!

Mr Weed, 10/10 for humour, I thought that was a good one. Tell me, when you stand in front of them 10 ft tall bass bins, can you hear it ok or does it need to be turned up to eleven?

I guess you're not that keen on U2 then..ha, ha.

Gordon.

SATCHMO · 02-19-2010, 09:14 AM

A lot of what you're observing Daktari is a progressive phenomenon within the music industry to mix and master the "product" with increasing levels of dynamic compression, which by default can and often does augment the bass levels disproportionately. The ultimate outcome and purpose of this is that it makes the recording sound "louder" and distinctly noticeable in an environment full of distracting ambient noise. It's essentially a marketing tool used to insure that songs get noticed in an environment (car, busy household, club, et al.) that is competing for consumer attention, and the amount of compression in audio recordings has been progressively increasing withing the recording industry for the past 50 years.

Another factor to consider is that as the recording and live sound industry has progressively become more successful at amplifying and reproducing bass instruments, it has been discovered that bass itself is a marketable commodity. Bass sells records. It's the element of a recorded song that most consumers consciously associate with a quality recording, and subconsciously, or consciously promotes record sales.

Parallel to the progressive augmentation of bass in recorded music, contemporary genres have evolved to feature exaggerated and over-compressed bass as part of what makes their style distinctive. What would a good hip hop album be without a punchy, loud and compressed kick drum that cut through the rest of the mix? It's something that this generation of music consumers have come to expect. The downside is that the overall dynamic range has subsequently been crushed to death, and many otherwise intricate aspects of a recording are forced to fall back into the mix, but sometimes, as much as it is a hard pill to swallow, we're dealing with an industry that is marketing a product, and, to reiterate, bass does sell, whether consumers are aware of it or not.

Your experience at the U2 concert could have a couple different factors, like your proximity to the mixing board, which is always where the best sound in the arena is gonna be since it's the FOH engineer's point of reference for his mix. Being on the side, as opposed to the center of the arena can drastically alter the perception of the perceived mix. Another thing, and it's often the case with big ticket shows, is that the arena where you saw the band wasn't designed for it's acoustics, but rather for how many people can be crammed into it. It's definitely been my experience that large indoor sporting arenas or and similar venues are an acoustic nightmare.

Daktari · 02-19-2010, 09:53 AM

Hi there,

Satchmo, I think you are dead right. The heavy bass thing has become a marketing tool and this generation has grown up expecting it. Also, we do have the technology and know-how to produce more powerful and deeper bass. I just think that in a live situation it is taken over the top as you say at the cost of losing other important parts of the mix.

As far as the U2 tour, well from reading reviews their attempt to produce the 360 deg show was a bit of a flop. That was the selling point of these shows, that wherever you are in the venue, the sound and the visuals would be equal and fantastic. No way, that was way too ambitious a project and certainly from my experience, it didn't come off too well.

After the concert there were comments like, I'm sure Edge played really well tonight, he looked to be putting a lot into it. Thing is, you couldn't hear him, or Bono's vocals.

As I mentioned earlier, I grew up playing bass in my dad's jazz band then I started my own reggae band which certainly had loud and punchy bass as part of the overall mix. The key word there is 'part' of the mix and not all powerful and overloading everything else.

More recently, went to see a young Californian reggae band, Rebelution, when they played in Atlanta. Course, I was expecting it to be solid and bassy, I've been seeing reggae bands perform for years. However, once again, overkill on the kick and the bass and it completely crapped out their sound. A shame really cos underneath all that, I think they were pretty good.

Gordon.

02-18-2010, 06:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
Daktari Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Originally from Lancashire, England, lived near Largs, Scotland and now live in Rocky Face, Georgia Posts: 154	This is a 'Hi Jack' Whatever I might think or you might think of U2 is not important here. I was just using them as an example of the bass too loud in the mix so it drowned out what most folks were there to hear. We are in agreement that some music styles need a prominent bass line, reggae being an obvious example. Thing is, when I was lucky enough to see the Wailers playing in a local bar in Chattanooga, the bass was well loud! But, when the vocals were happening or a guitar solo, it was mixed well and because they were good musicians, left enough space so it was obvious there was a solo or vocal going on. Thing is, when you listen to an album of recorded music, whatever the style, someone as taken the trouble to get a decent mix down on record. This means you can hear all the instruments, especially the vocal and the solo parts. I guess I'm mainly commenting on the poor live mix quality and the presumption that everyone wants this bass biased muddy sound. Or, maybe half of them are deaf and can't hear it properly themselves... Gordon.

02-18-2010, 08:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
Violent & Funky FUNky Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Midland, MI Posts: 2,482	I get what you are saying about kids and their sub-woofers, and I also understand that getting a proper mix in a live setting is very important. But I was wondering if you have any examples for us from the record studio of a song which suffers from this bass disease?

02-19-2010, 06:10 AM	#13 (permalink)
Daktari Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Originally from Lancashire, England, lived near Largs, Scotland and now live in Rocky Face, Georgia Posts: 154	Good Friday morning to all, V.F. Maybe I gave the wrong impression but what I'm saying is that although engineers and mixing experts get a good mix on the record, it is the way the music is re-produced mainly in a live concert situation or as the example of the kids in their cars that I'm talking about. There is a definate obsession for overkill on the bass side on the reproduction of the recorded music. If I play a Gregory Isaacs cd at home and turn it up, the bass is gonna be loud. That's the way it was meant to be. However, I can still hear the vocal track and all the top end percussiony stuff going on. That's what makes it good to listen to. Then, if I go to a concert and the bottom end is so overpowering that all that intricate percussion , the guitar, the vocals, etc, etc, are lost in the muddy bass, then I'm gonna be disapointed. The young guy I mentioned earlier with his boom, boom, car set up summed up this obsession or trend when he told me he just bought music nowadays that he knew would give him that heavy, deep bass when he turned it up in his car. All his recent collection of music was based on that.. To me, that's just a shame because choosing your music based on that ruling is a move away from music itself. He might as well go and listen to a bunch of guys building a road, cos they can sound pretty loud and bassy too. Have a great weekend, Gordon.

02-19-2010, 08:33 AM	#15 (permalink)
saddle_sore Groupie Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 31	Loudness Wars for sure - over compression and generally bad mixing

02-19-2010, 08:48 AM	#16 (permalink)
Daktari Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Originally from Lancashire, England, lived near Largs, Scotland and now live in Rocky Face, Georgia Posts: 154	Quote: I would say it's a good thing that both Bono and The Edge are drowned out by bass. Quote: It'd be a lot better if we just drowned them! Mr Weed, 10/10 for humour, I thought that was a good one. Tell me, when you stand in front of them 10 ft tall bass bins, can you hear it ok or does it need to be turned up to eleven? I guess you're not that keen on U2 then..ha, ha. Gordon.

02-19-2010, 09:14 AM	#17 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	A lot of what you're observing Daktari is a progressive phenomenon within the music industry to mix and master the "product" with increasing levels of dynamic compression, which by default can and often does augment the bass levels disproportionately. The ultimate outcome and purpose of this is that it makes the recording sound "louder" and distinctly noticeable in an environment full of distracting ambient noise. It's essentially a marketing tool used to insure that songs get noticed in an environment (car, busy household, club, et al.) that is competing for consumer attention, and the amount of compression in audio recordings has been progressively increasing withing the recording industry for the past 50 years. Another factor to consider is that as the recording and live sound industry has progressively become more successful at amplifying and reproducing bass instruments, it has been discovered that bass itself is a marketable commodity. Bass sells records. It's the element of a recorded song that most consumers consciously associate with a quality recording, and subconsciously, or consciously promotes record sales. Parallel to the progressive augmentation of bass in recorded music, contemporary genres have evolved to feature exaggerated and over-compressed bass as part of what makes their style distinctive. What would a good hip hop album be without a punchy, loud and compressed kick drum that cut through the rest of the mix? It's something that this generation of music consumers have come to expect. The downside is that the overall dynamic range has subsequently been crushed to death, and many otherwise intricate aspects of a recording are forced to fall back into the mix, but sometimes, as much as it is a hard pill to swallow, we're dealing with an industry that is marketing a product, and, to reiterate, bass does sell, whether consumers are aware of it or not. Your experience at the U2 concert could have a couple different factors, like your proximity to the mixing board, which is always where the best sound in the arena is gonna be since it's the FOH engineer's point of reference for his mix. Being on the side, as opposed to the center of the arena can drastically alter the perception of the perceived mix. Another thing, and it's often the case with big ticket shows, is that the arena where you saw the band wasn't designed for it's acoustics, but rather for how many people can be crammed into it. It's definitely been my experience that large indoor sporting arenas or and similar venues are an acoustic nightmare.

02-19-2010, 09:53 AM	#18 (permalink)
Daktari Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Originally from Lancashire, England, lived near Largs, Scotland and now live in Rocky Face, Georgia Posts: 154	Hi there, Satchmo, I think you are dead right. The heavy bass thing has become a marketing tool and this generation has grown up expecting it. Also, we do have the technology and know-how to produce more powerful and deeper bass. I just think that in a live situation it is taken over the top as you say at the cost of losing other important parts of the mix. As far as the U2 tour, well from reading reviews their attempt to produce the 360 deg show was a bit of a flop. That was the selling point of these shows, that wherever you are in the venue, the sound and the visuals would be equal and fantastic. No way, that was way too ambitious a project and certainly from my experience, it didn't come off too well. After the concert there were comments like, I'm sure Edge played really well tonight, he looked to be putting a lot into it. Thing is, you couldn't hear him, or Bono's vocals. As I mentioned earlier, I grew up playing bass in my dad's jazz band then I started my own reggae band which certainly had loud and punchy bass as part of the overall mix. The key word there is 'part' of the mix and not all powerful and overloading everything else. More recently, went to see a young Californian reggae band, Rebelution, when they played in Atlanta. Course, I was expecting it to be solid and bassy, I've been seeing reggae bands perform for years. However, once again, overkill on the kick and the bass and it completely crapped out their sound. A shame really cos underneath all that, I think they were pretty good. Gordon.