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Old 02-01-2011, 08:25 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Well, one could argue that Never Mind the Bollocks obviously was a culmination of the Sex Pistol's career up to that point word of development/achievement, and therefore, exhausted what little they had to them.

Time doesn't always mean effort. Maybe those 3 years were spent trying to dumb it down for a mainstream audience(This is Def Leppard we're talking about). Considering how big of a name Def Leppard is, the effort may not have been spent in quality, but in palpability.

Besides, just because the Sex Pistols work was culturally significant it was largely due to timing, and one could argue was riding on the wave of the efforts of punk as a collective to get noticed. One could also argue there are many more effortful works that deserve more recognition.
You know it's interesting because I chose Def Leppard's Hysteria album for a reason. I expected it to get treated like mid 80s fluff and dismissed and you did exactly that.
Even though that album contains some of the most complex & intricate recording techniques & a use of technology totally unheard of on rock albums at the time. In fact it's commercial success wasn't guaranteed at all. They'd been away for 4 years which was a lifetime in the 80s when bands put out albums every year. And there was no assurances people would go for this new sound either.

So in Def Leppard's case time certainly did mean effort. The record sold something like 10 million copies. So it's ground breaking and it sold well commercially, which is the music industry is pretty rare.

It basically covers all your criteria for a worthwhile album, and yet it isn't.
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:35 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Both John Zorn, and Sun Ra are EXTREMELY hard working musicians. They both run their own operations, write their own material(which includes often hand written notation. Sun Ra's material was often improvised often meticulously pre-written. Watching videos on Spillane's creation often proves sometimes Zorn utilizes extremely complex procedures to write material), promoted their own material, and both had to assemble a massive catalog of A-class musicians, and improvisers to pull off their works. It may be distributed over a larger number of pieces for both, but - in the end - I don't think you can criticize either for being a slouch.

Especially Sun Ra, who took so much dedication to his music that he and his band often hand assembled records for sale before shows. Why? He was doing it entirely without the influence, or funding, of any group which might interrupt his creative process. Sun Ra poured his heart, and soul into his music 24/7. It was his life, and I doubt there were many moments in the day where he wasn't at least contemplating what he wanted to do with his music.
You've totally missed my point here. I wasn't saying I think either is a slouch. I was pointing out that they've both released albums that took very little time to write and record but are nevertheless great music. The point being that things are not made great simply by the amount of effort put into them.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #103 (permalink)
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You've totally missed my point here. I wasn't saying I think either is a slouch. I was pointing out that they've both released albums that took very little time to write and record but are nevertheless great music. The point being that things are not made great simply by the amount of effort put into them.
I don't think I missed the point. I don't think you're reading between the lines with mine.

My point was time =/= effort. The effort was there, it just wasn't spent entirely in production. Where as Britney Spears is somebody who can casually go to the studio for a few hours here, and there, and have a pop album by the end of the year. The rest of the time she can be spent doing **** all. It's why people like Britney Spears have somewhat limited repertoire on what she can do.

Sure, Zorn may bring somebody like Fred Frith in studio, and hammer out a studio record in one 1 hour take, but that doesn't stop the fact that they're both probably working on three or four projects simultaneously, and neither does it mean that it isn't the culmination of effort put into developing themselves as musicians. Which they are both breaching heavy inspiration from.

The fact they CAN produce that quality of work the way they do comes from the fact they spent the effort developing themselves as musicians. Ask Britney Spears to come into the studio for an hour, and produce something, she'd most likely be completely lost. Where as, Ask her to compose a massive conceptual album, she'd be lost as well. Because, she obviously spends less effort developing herself as a musician.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:04 AM   #104 (permalink)
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I don't think I missed the point. I don't think you're reading between the lines with mine.

My point was time =/= effort. The effort was there, it just wasn't spent entirely in production. Where as Britney Spears is somebody who can casually go to the studio for a few hours here, and there, and have a pop album by the end of the year. The rest of the time she can be spent doing **** all. It's why people like Britney Spears have somewhat limited repertoire on what she can do.

Sure, Zorn may bring somebody like Fred Frith in studio, and hammer out a studio record in one 1 hour take, but that doesn't stop the fact that they're both probably working on three or four projects simultaneously, and neither does it mean that it isn't the culmination of effort put into developing themselves as musicians. Which they are both breaching heavy inspiration from.

The fact they CAN produce that quality of work the way they do comes from the fact they spent the effort developing themselves as musicians. Ask Britney Spears to come into the studio for an hour, and produce something, she'd most likely be completely lost. Where as, Ask her to compose a massive conceptual album, she'd be lost as well. Because, she obviously spends less effort developing herself as a musician.
Here's the thing though: I think you're wrong about how much effort goes into a Britney Spears album. For one thing, something like that is undoubtedly a massive team effort involving very highly trained session musicians, producers, engineers, etc. And when it comes to Britney Spears herself, I have no doubt that she has spent vast amounts of time developing her singing voice and probably spends massive amounts of time in the studio getting the absolutely perfect end product. And yet, nevertheless, at the end of the day her albums still suck.

The point is a ton of effort doesn't make something great, and a lesser amount of effort doesn't make something bad.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:14 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Here's the thing though: I think you're wrong about how much effort goes into a Britney Spears album. For one thing, something like that is undoubtedly a massive team effort involving very highly trained session musicians, producers, engineers, etc. And when it comes to Britney Spears herself, I have no doubt that she has spent vast amounts of time developing her singing voice and probably spends massive amounts of time in the studio getting the absolutely perfect end product. And yet, nevertheless, at the end of the day her albums still suck.

The point is a ton of effort doesn't make something great, and a lesser amount of effort doesn't make something bad.
Ok, then I could say I can measure things on a combination of focused effort, and controlled creative vision. The production of a Britney Spears CD wouldn't be reliant on a controlled creative vision because of it's necessity to rely on formula, and the focused effort is split among many sources who are skilled but are trained to treat their job like factory work.

Whether it's effort or not, there are still factors that denote quality in comparing works of art.
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Old 12-23-2015, 04:45 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Enough with the labels. " Music fans" in the know have an obnoxious penchant for throwing around names of artists they consider "relevant" because they mearly like their music. Without knowing squat about where the music comes from and why it sounds like it does. It takes years of examination to arrive at a knowledgable opinion about music. If one was to call "pop" musin Blues, one would get an argument from said "music fans". Consider these elements of our western pop music...syncopation, call and response, the percussive method of performance, and GROOVE. These appropriated elements are all used quite freely in "POP" music. ALL the genetic markers of BLUES. Remember...there is a difference between quotation and thievery.
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Old 12-23-2015, 04:59 PM   #107 (permalink)
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This is a music forum filled with people well used to all the pros and cons of pop music. Accept that we know where you're coming from and move on, cause we've heard five million and one persons complain about pop music. Talk about the music you like or bitch about music that isn't pop, cause we've heard this.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:13 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I like music.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:47 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Your username makes this plain.
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Old 12-25-2015, 01:45 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Your username makes this plain.
Only a little. lol
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