The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?

Paedantic Basterd · 12-11-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubato

*his*

Thought it might be the case. It was the impression I received from your manner of speaking, but I didn't want to offend you by assuming either way.

Salami · 12-11-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I agree with Rubato, actually, because his/her post supports music as a spandrel of language.

Also, that was really condescending.

Actually, now I re-read what I wrote, I sound really horrible and it does talk down to you in a very mean way. Sorry about that Rubato, I didn't mean to come across like that, I thought you made an astute point.

On the other hand, I agree with Pedestrian that music is indeed intrinsic to language because language is more of a form of expression, and is about communicating that feeling.

I personally don't think that this necessitates that all music must be a form of communication, but definitely a form of expression, if a distinction can be made.

And before steveeden tries to correct me again, "necessitates" is a real word.

duga · 12-11-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveeden888

I don't know Mighty. Is ingenuitive a Word? Ingenuity? Ingenuous? Ingenious?

What is your definition of 'Evolution'? The Evolutionary 'process' you are speaking of is not the "origin" of the word evolution.

That word 'evolved' through non-accidental adaptation, and, you are discussing a 'theoretical process', Evolutionism.

To satisfy you Mighty, I will present a love song from Mother Earth. It even has lyrics. Tell me if you think Earth is just trying to impress chicks?

My soul is an entangled knot,
Upon a liquid vortex wrought
By Intellect in the Unseen residing,
And thine doth like a convict sit,
With marlinespike untwisting it,
Only to find its knottiness abiding;
Since all the tools for its untying
In four-dimensional space are lying,
Wherein they fancy intersperses
Long avenues of universes,
While Klein and Clifford fill the void
With one finite, unbounded homaloid,
And think the Infinite is now at last destroyed.

James Clerk Maxwell

I asked for the videos of the songs for a reason. A reason of fear like you have never felt. Because, if evolution taught me anything, it taught me the fact that we are here for the long haul, Mighty.

Again, you do not understand things of the scriptures. I do. And, according to the prophesies, it was over as of 1611 AD.

And, messages are delivered through song, and, I need some information that might suggest a positive outcome. As in it is not too late, as every book seems to indicate.

You are eating off a tree here on the world wide spider web of good and evil knowledge.

Here's the deal. It's real as in the illusory perceptive, the reality is within you; as a "carbon copy" image of the beast.

Again, these are things you do not see or understand. I understand them too well. And, understood them exactly 12 days too late.

hmmmm, Is a mental judgment Mighty. I sincerely hope you rid those thoughts. And, not suggest to consider what was done to that 'girl last year'.
Or, do the same thing to 'this guy'.

Because, evolutionism of music is no accident, and if you have to hear going backwards, it will torment you as it is me now.

Don't risk it brother. Just hope I can find the evidence that my so-called very best friend is some type of Antichrist. He knows everything about everything, and has never graduated high school. Or, read a book. But, he showed me how easily to deceive someone who thought he could never be deceived.

I'm asking you for your own sake to believe what I am writing here. I'm 99% sure you do not have to worry about things. I am telling you all the Truth. I wouldn't bank on that one percent of uncertainty.

I never believed in a 'devil'. But, I have to stake my subatomic particle of Faith in something I was certain of prior to Dec 7, 2011. I should be in an asylum right now, mumbling off rubber walls. If you knew what I know, you would be. I guarantee it.

Give yourself some Peace, and show some Love. I am sacrificing the rest of my life on a wing and a prayer.

I am doing this for humanity, not myself, as I know based on evidence, that I am not joining the 'bliss' ride I experienced.

Certainly you don't think anyone here understands or cares what you are farting out with these posts. You know what the thread is about. Get to it or I'll start considering you a spammer.

blastingas10 · 12-11-2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighty Salami

I'd treat the claim that music's biological function is purely a sexual one as being extremely dubious. The whole point of starting a band when you are nineteen is that you are old enough to make your own decisions, you feel a sense of awe in what you are discovering and you are finding new talents. Also, a desire to create something hich is aesthetically pleasing to behold is the cornerstone of art, not just music. Deriding this is to claim that human creativity is "biologically worthless", which in turn shows a complete disregard to culture. I also think you were right to feel insulted by Pinker's belittling of music.It is preposterous to think that it is only a natural desire to mate drives us to this. I personally like nothing more than to stroll down on saturday mornings, seat myself at the piano and play some Scott Joplin piano rags for an hour or so. No one will ever hear me. So why do I do it? I have an urge, intrinsic to all humans, to be creative and express the soul. I don't do it because I want to find a partner, nor would I select a partner through their ability to play an instrument.
If you believe in God, you should be even more offended by this, because the human desire to be creative is something God probably loves.
Music is, in the words of CS Lewis, "an acceleration in celestial experience."

Overall, that was a very interesting review. As for where do I believe music evolved from, I think it probably stems from the fact that the desire for harmony and to express oneself in sound is closely linked to the rest of art, except through another medium, ie. sound. I think that the very first cave paintings, which might be the first form of recorded art, show that people want to express themselves, and if they can do that, they can make music.

Every time you play piano, you're just expressing your desire to mate with a partner.

Just kidding, I completely agree, salami.

I believe that some things are out of reach of the arm of science. I find it to be quite annoying that scientists believe that they have an answer for everything, such arrogance.

**Janszoon** · 12-11-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

Every time you play piano, you're just expressing your desire to mate with a partner.

Just kidding, I completely agree, salami.

I believe that some things are out of reach of the arm of science. I find it to be quite annoying that scientists believe that they have an answer for everything, such arrogance.

Scientists DON'T believe they have an answer for everything. If they did there'd be no such thing as research.

Salami · 12-11-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Certainly you don't think anyone here understands or cares what you are farting out with these posts. You know what the thread is about. Get to it or I'll start considering you a spammer.

Ehhh, I didn't read that much of it anyway. He seemed to be taking immense pleasure in finding faults with my spelling, so I thought better of reading the rest!

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

Every time you play piano, you're just expressing your desire to mate with a partner.

Just kidding, I completely agree, salami.

I believe that some things are out of reach of the arm of science. I find it to be quite annoying that scientists believe that they have an answer for everything, such arrogance.

To think I'm soon going to start a mechanical engineering degree!

I never liked the idea that we can narrow everything down to simple biological causes. If there's one thing I ever learned in biology, it's that the human brain is far more complicated than we can currently understand, and to deride music as some simple chemical impulsive urge...

blankety blank · 12-11-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Certainly you don't think anyone here understands or cares what you are farting out with these posts. You know what the thread is about. Get to it or I'll start considering you a spammer.

No, I know no one cares what I am farting out. And, that was my last fart on this thread. But, you best know that everything I tried to express has a whole lot to do with evolution, music, accident, and adaptation.

I actually do know what this thread is about. I hope you do not have to discover what it is about the way I discovered. That's all. Just trying to help.

I won't be around here much longer serving up spam. So, relax duga. And, hope I was just blowing off gas. I sure do.

Since, it is a music site. I'll end with a song. It is a primal mating call.

My Chemical Romance.

Peace be unto you.

Calm · 12-11-2011, 02:27 PM

Freud humour, I like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighty Salami

I never liked the idea that we can narrow everything down to simple biological causes. If there's one thing I ever learned in biology, it's that the human brain is far more complicated than we can currently understand, and to deride music as some simple chemical impulsive urge...

It's not simple at all, but psychology as-is is very divided and unsure, so I doubt we'll ever hear a fully fleshed out answer.

The things is, what else could it be if not a "chemical impulsive urge"?

MoonlitSunshine · 12-11-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

Every time you play piano, you're just expressing your desire to mate with a partner.

Just kidding, I completely agree, salami.

I believe that some things are out of reach of the arm of science. I find it to be quite annoying that scientists believe that they have an answer for everything, such arrogance.

Woah, hating on the scientists there :P There is quite a large portion of the scientific community that believe that the more they discover about the universe, the more wonderful and fantastic it seems. In my experience, there are two types of people, best described using their reaction to magic tricks:

The first group are those who love magic tricks for the show. They love watching them, they think they're amazing, and they don't want to know how it works - for them, to reveal the "trick" would be to ruin the show.

The second group are your "Scientists". These people love the tricks, but for them, the burning need to understand how it works isn't because they want to ruin it, but because knowing how would just make it better. The why is important to them, because the whys are what make the world wonderful to them.

Anyone who says they are a scientist, and that they have an answer for everything, is not a scientist. One of the fundamental aspects of scientific method is the disregard for anything that does not follow from rigorous logical steps. If anything, we claim to know the "answer" to less, by virtue of the fact that we do not accept divine intervention (for the most part) as an answer.

Music is a language. It's one of the most universal languages, which is part of what makes it so beautiful. No matter what language the song is in, no matter the culture of the composer of the piece, it has a unique ability to transcend cultural boundaries. Did it evolve? I would be inclined to say yes. It seems to fit with... it fits. It's a form of expression which fills what would otherwise be a void in our methods of expression. Did anyone ever have to teach you what different musical pieces meant? It just makes sense.

The next question for me is why. I agree with your rebuttal of the concept of it evolving as a sexual "bird call". It doesn't negate the possibility that is started in that manner, but it's unlikely. If I were to hedge a theory, I would think it was the result of a spontaneous need for expression, inherent in our being - why? Because of the fact that music seems to have independently sprouted up in so many different parts of the world, Just as languages did. From there, it blossomed, because it is so wonderful a method of expression. We have music in our bones, in our blood. That it survived to grow as it did is just as obvious as the reason that language has blossomed. And like language, it has certainly evolved from its simple beginnings.

Can we pin it down to a biological, geneological trait that has survived the ages? I'm... not so certain. There are books that I need to read - This is your Brain on Music has been on my shortlist for some time. I haven't studied it enough, and I wouldn't presume to have the answer

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 12-11-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonlitSunshine

Music is a language. It's one of the most universal languages,

I never liked this idea. I don't think music is a language, I think it's a multitude of languages. Music is an expression of language like speaking, or writing. It can't be serialized to a particular language.

Trust me, if there's one thing that mb has taught me, is that it's definitely not universal.