What is music, what is not?

DwnWthVwls · 10-13-2014, 12:16 PM

^Exactly my point. You can't just attach "it's my opinion" to anything you want and deny everything else. There are certain criteria that must be fulfilled in order to qualify as a valid opinion.

Holerbot6000 · 10-13-2014, 12:35 PM

John Cage identifies a specific period of time and any sound that occurs during that time is part of the 'song'; Brian Eno takes a piece of sound, any sound, and plays it repeatedly until the sound starts to become familiar to the listener, like a melody. Ideas like these made me realize that anything can be music and pushes my ears to be more adventurous.

**Frownland** · 10-13-2014, 01:14 PM

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Good analogy but what if the turtleneck was made out of dog sh*t? Is it still clothing?

I like the Douglas Adams quote a lot btw, and completely agree with it.

If the tailor who made it called it a sweater and it could function as a sweater, Id just tell him it's a ****ty sweater.

Machine · 10-13-2014, 01:33 PM

Hi everyone I'm back glad to see that there was a discussion while I was gone and I'd like to add my input. On the matter of Trollheart's opinion on the matter of grindcore and how much debate it has caused it is good to bring up that unlike physical things we cannot have a clear definition if what music is. No matter what a sweater made of s*** is nonetheless a sweater as it has the physical properties of one. There is a grey area when it comes to music and in it the subjective mind forms its own opinions on things that are not seen, love, or any emotion has this grey area and that's why I think we form our own definitions. So we end up forming our own opinions on what music is, and while I respect this entirely grindcore fans who do consider it music are going to fight against it. I personally hold the view that it is music along with many other things and as our discussion turned early if music was the intent by the artist isn't that music. The same goes with art but again that's another thread another time.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 01:54 PM

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I have a problem with this analogy/argument. Your opinion that it is not a sport IS denial of it being a sport. You can't have it both ways, they are direct contradictions. Also, it is a sport by definition so just because you decide to claim you have an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong just because you're claiming it to be an opinion. I've had this discussion with Soulflower before when we were butting heads.

No, again you're missing the central point of my argument. Lord above! NOTHING in ANYTHING I've said has made the claim that music, or sport, is not what it is. My point has ALWAYS been that I DO NOT SEE IT AS SUCH, and that I, and I alone, am allowed to have that view without being hounded over it and being accused of having "the wrong opinion."

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The problem with music is that there is no clear cut definition as you can witness by the entire discussion leading up to this point.

I've been saying this all along. So if there is no clear-cut definition, then it is up to every single individual to decide how he, she or it defines music, to them. This is what I am doing. It's not meant to be a blueprint for anyone else to follow, just my opinion, which I'm entitled to have, whether you or anyone else agrees with it or not.

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Originally Posted by Soulflower

I see your point but it is still HIS opinion. You don't have to agree with it.

It might be close minded to you but that is still his opinion which he is still technically entitled too.

Thanks. You get it.

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

See, this is what confuses me. Why would you say you don't see baseball as a sport when you do acknowledge that it is in fact a sport? I mean, believe me, I think baseball is one of the most boring things on earth so I think you and I share similar feelings about it, but nevertheless it clearly contains all the attributes that constitute a sport. So why would you say it isn't one as some sort of value judgement? Are you saying that intellectually you recognize that baseball is a sport and grindcore is music, but they just don't hit you that way on a gut level?

I have nothing against baseball. It was purely an example. And again, I'm not trying to invalidate it, or any other sport. But people put their own values and criteria on sport, often just to trivialise the one they don't like, or just to get a rise out of someone. To quote Mrs. Doyle from Father Ted: "Football! A bunch of silly men running around after a ball!" I've heard conversations many times that go like this:

Person A: "So, do you play any sports?"
Person B: "Oh yeah. I'm an avid golfer."
Person A: "Jaysus! Golf? That's not a sport! Walkin' around with a trolley and occasionally hittin' a ball down a green! Now RUGBY, THAT'S a sport!"
and so on.

Whether Person A in the above example believes what he's saying or is just trying to wind up person B, I do know people who sneer at golf and say it isn't a sport. Ditto for tennis, and sometimes cricket or F1. That does not of course make them suddenly not be sports, but it is Person A's opinion and he is entitled to it. Whether or not a fistfight will break out between him and Person B is something we will never know.

The point is, that unless something is empirically proven, you can have an opinion on it and you can't be told you're wrong.

"That door is closed"
"In my opinion it is not."
That's not a valid opinion, because the truth can be verified by checking to see is the door closed.

"Traffic's murder today."
"In my opinion it isn't".
Harder to qualify, but still, if a quick look around verifies that there are a lot of cars on the road, then yeah, traffic is heavy and the opinion does not hold weight, unless qualified with something like "You should see rush hour in St Louis" or whatever.

"That cloud is shaped like a dog."
"In my opinion, it is not."
This is a very valid opinion. One person may see a shape, another may not, and even if twenty other people can see it, this does not mean that the one who cannot is wrong, because the shape seen in the cloud is subjective. If pressed further, many other people may not see it. The ones who do may find it hard to believe that the one who can't is unable to see it, but they have to accept that he simply can't. Or doesn't choose to. It's an opinion, that cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Even with a photograph of the cloud, you're not going to change his mind.

The reason all our parents described our music as "just noise" is that they had been brought up with completely different criteria by which to judge music. If they had been used to big bands, jazz and singers who enunciated every word, then four young fellas yelling and banging on guitars would, to them, have been noise, and nothing you could say would likely have changed their minds. This does not mean that the Beatles' music was noise of course, but it does not invalidate their opinion, because that is or was what they believed.

I can only keep saying that my opinion of what is music is personal, only applies to me and I do not ask or expect anyone else to agree or to take up my view. But it is my opinion, and nobody is gonig to bully, cajole, insult or use spurious logic to try to change my mind. I KNOW what I consider to be music, you don't. YOU use different criteria, and that's fine; I don't question those. But they're not mine. So if I can accept your opinion (this is not directed at you Jansz) why then can you not accept mine?

Just because a ton of people believe something does not make it true. I can give you plenty of examples of times when the majority got it wrong. So just because many people here think I'm wrong in my assessment of music does not make that true either. I'm not sure why nobody seems to be able to accept this. You're trying to force your views and criteria on me, I'm not doing the same. I understand grindcore is music, or to quote Bender, at least from a technical standpoint. But I don't see it as such, and I don't expect that to change, though I don't ever rule anything out. I used to think black metal was just noise, now I can quite enjoy some of it. I doubt it'll happen with grindcore but you never know.

But until then, if ever, please do me the courtesy of allowing me my opinion.

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Also, just to be clear here, because I've recently learned that there's a sensitive soul in Michigan who thinks I'm insulted by music disagreements: I enjoy having these kind of debates and discussions with you, Trollheart, and am not insulted or irritated or anything other than pleased to engage in them. You're one of my favorite people to talk to on MB in part because we tend to approach a given musical thing from different angles. I respect your opinions and your right to have them but I do very much enjoy debating them with you.

I know that. It's good to know we can argue without falling out.

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Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

^Exactly my point. You can't just attach "it's my opinion" to anything you want and deny everything else. There are certain criteria that must be fulfilled in order to qualify as a valid opinion.

Since when did I ever do that? And who says criteria have to be satisified to qualify an opinion? Anyone can have an opinion, and there is no such thing as a good or bad one. Who would decide? All opinions are valid, whether they're right or wrong. That's what makes them opinions, rather than facts. Your last sentence really refers more to facts I think.

Jesse Mattson · 10-13-2014, 02:01 PM

My music theory teacher told us anything that is intended to be music, is music

Necromancer · 10-13-2014, 02:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

Also, just to be clear here, because I've recently learned that there's a sensitive soul in Michigan who thinks I'm insulted by music disagreements: I enjoy having these kind of debates and discussions with you, Trollheart, and am not insulted or irritated or anything other than pleased to engage in t hem. You're one of my favorite people to talk to on MB in part because we tend to approach a given musical thing from different angles. I respect your opinions and your right to have them but I do very much enjoy debating them with you.

I would like to mention that all of your post have been absoloutly outstanding the last couple of days.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 02:26 PM

I've spent a lot of time in this thread today, so I'm going to bow out for a few hours now, as I have a ton of stuff still to write for Metal Month II, and I also want to try update my other journals.

If anyone posts anything directed towards me then, don't think I'm being rude, ignoring you or that you have bested me, or that I'm sulking. I will be back either later or tomorrow, and will address any posts that concern me. I'd be happiest just to have the discussion move on though, as it seems that no matter what I say nobody is really listening or accepting my points.

Be that as it may, you won't hear from me now until at least three or four hours from now. I have work to do.

Thanks
TH

DwnWthVwls · 10-13-2014, 08:23 PM

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