What is music, what is not?

Machine · 10-12-2014, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Sounds like a cool childhood.

I am madly in love (sounds like hyperbole, but it's the best way to describe my feelings) with Can, although it started in my late teens and I remember being somewhat annoyed and bored by them on first listen.

My dad would always joke that I was the only 5 year old in the world who knew who Can was, I still love them to this day I own Tago Mago and Ege Bamyasi. Although I'm a huge fan other music now I still listen to that stuff that I listened to as a kid.

**Janszoon** · 10-12-2014, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I disagree. Your average uneducated music listener can recognize patterns in traditional genres and that is what tends to dictate if they find a song catchy or appealing. If you played the rock you mentioned 100 years ago they might not like it but they would still be able to recognize melody in it. It wouldn't be "just noise".

It would probably sound like "just noise" to them, and the reason why is that rock would not be a "traditional genre" to someone from 100 years ago. My grandfather grew up in the 1910s and 1920s listening to classical and ragtime and he thought The Beatles were "just noise". One of his big gripes about rock in general was that to him it had no melody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

With math metal/grindcore etc anyone who isn't educated in music won't understand what is going on. They may like the sound of it but they sure as hell are not recognizing the points that Jans made.

I'm not educated in music. I never went to music school or anything. I can't break down what's being played into esoteric bits of music theory. I just know very basic things like what the words "melody" and "harmony" mean, which I think is pretty common knowledge. I don't think it takes a musical education to listen to someone playing a guitar and recognize that they are playing notes on it, something which happens in grindcore, math rock, etc.

Neapolitan · 10-12-2014, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

I sometimes come across people at concerts of experimental music, who give the impression to just be there, because it's supposed to be intellectual and classy. No enjoyment, no feeling for the beauty of the music, just cold calculation.
A sad sight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machine

Honestly those kind of people annoy me because there's no reason to act like something your not. I was raised on experimental, krautrock, garage rock, punk, electronic, and anything else so for me it feels right to me I hear things in that type of music that most people won't, as I said before that is what I was raised on.

How do you come to that conclusion, because they are not acting the way you expect? How do you know what they are thinking and feeling?

**Frownland** · 10-12-2014, 01:18 PM

Trollheart, you make me sad. It can be noise but it is also music.

I have a very liberal stance on defining music somewhat modeled after Duchamp's statement that 'What I have in mind is that art may be bad, good or indifferent, but, whatever adjective is used, we must call it art, and bad art is still art in the same way that a bad emotion is still an emotion.' Whenever an artist comes out with anything and calls it music, it inherently is. It can be a take on music that I don't agree with or sounds too foreign to me, but it is still music, no matter how structureless, pointless, or atonal it may be. This ideology opens the door to some artists making what they see as a musical equivalent of The Emperor's New Clothes. But to be honest, if I like the music, I'll be the first to tell the emperor how awesome his outfit is.

One argument I hear against improvisational music is "my five year old could do this! This is not music!" which I find to be pretty dumb. I bet your five year old could strum and sing a poppy Beatles tune on the guitar, but that is still music as well. Record your little tyke and if it sounds good enough I'll call him a prodigy.

I'm going to take it a step further by embracing a Cageian perspective. Music can exist without intent as well. Listening to lines bang on a flagpole while construction across the street clangs and roars while grindy belches tree times is music as well because if someone recorded that as a field recording it would qualify as music to most. So I take the argument that it's a live performance of such. I think viewing the world as a musical landscape opens it up as a place rife with beauty and makes for a more enjoyable experience overall.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

How do you come to that conclusion, because they are not acting the way you expect? How do you know what they are thinking and feeling?

I mostly base this on conversations I have with them or conversations I overhear.
But as I said, it's an impression and it might be often or even always wrong.

DwnWthVwls · 10-12-2014, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

It would. My grandfather grew up in the 1910s and 1920s listening to classical and ragtime and he thought The Beatles were "just noise". One of his big gripes about rock in general was that to him it had no melody.

I'm not educated in music. I never went to music school or anything. I can't break down what's being played into esoteric bits of music theory. I just know very basic things like what the words "melody" and "harmony" mean, which I think is pretty common knowledge. I don't think it takes a musical education to listen to someone playing a guitar and recognize that they are playing notes on it, something which happens in grindcore, math rock, etc.

I find it hard to believe that he didn't recognize a pattern in the music. It sounds like he was just being stubborn because he didn't enjoy the music(melody). Not enjoying the melody and not recognizing there is more than just random sounds being played are the two things I was trying to differentiate between.

As for your second point, I know those words as well but from the grindcore I have listened to I would definitely not be able to make the claims you made to Trollheart. As far as I know everything you play on an instrument is a note, correct? So obviously I would recognize they are playing notes but when the notes are put together it makes very little sense to me. You seem to have a much higher comprehension of it than I do.

Machine · 10-12-2014, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

How do you come to that conclusion, because they are not acting the way you expect? How do you know what they are thinking and feeling?

Not how they act, but you know when someone is really enjoying something and when it's what is "cool" to like or listen. But as grindy said it is an impression so there is always the possibility of being wrong of this assumption.

**Janszoon** · 10-12-2014, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I find it hard to believe that he didn't recognize a pattern in the music. It sounds like he was just being stubborn because he didn't enjoy the music(melody). Not enjoying the melody and not recognizing there is more than just random sounds being played are the two things I was trying to differentiate.

Well, I find it hard to believe that you and Trollheart can't recognize patterns in grindcore or math rock, but nevertheless I guess I have to take your word for it. Or maybe you're just being stubborn because you don't enjoy the music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

As for your second point, I know those words as well but from the grindcore I have listened to I would definitely not be able to make the claims you made to Trollheart. As far as I know everything you play on an instrument is a note, correct? So obviously I would recognize they are playing notes but when the notes are put together it makes very little sense to me. You seem to have a much higher comprehension of it than I do.

The point isn't really whether they make sense to someone or not. It's safe to assume The Beatles' melodies didn't make sense to my grandfather, but nevertheless they, and the melodies in grindcore, are a series of notes played in a deliberate order, which means they make up a melodies.

DwnWthVwls · 10-12-2014, 02:08 PM

This sounds like noise to me:
Mr. Hinkle's Medical History | Jesus the Carpenter

I can not for the life of me recognize any sort of pattern. It's just a bunch of random sounds (to me). Thanks Frown :P

I can recognize repetition of notes in all of these songs:

It's been a long time since I listened to any of this stuff. I was mixed up in what grindcore is exactly, but hopefully these examples will help you understand the point I was trying to make regardless of genre.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

This sounds like noise to me:
Mr. Hinkle's Medical History | Jesus the Carpenter

I can not for the life of me recognize any sort of pattern. It's just a bunch of random sounds (to me). Thanks Frown :P

I can recognize repetition of notes in all of these songs:

It's been a long time since I listened to any of this stuff. I was mixed up in what grindcore is exactly, but hopefully these examples will help you understand the point I was trying to make regardless of genre.

I listen to lots of music that might sound far more random and noisy than this Jesus The Carpenter track. So that's not the problem, but still I think it's pretty lame and uninteresting.

Ah Grindcore....that takes me back. Not a big fan anymore though, with some exceptions.

10-12-2014, 01:18 PM	#34 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	Trollheart, you make me sad. It can be noise but it is also music. I have a very liberal stance on defining music somewhat modeled after Duchamp's statement that 'What I have in mind is that art may be bad, good or indifferent, but, whatever adjective is used, we must call it art, and bad art is still art in the same way that a bad emotion is still an emotion.' Whenever an artist comes out with anything and calls it music, it inherently is. It can be a take on music that I don't agree with or sounds too foreign to me, but it is still music, no matter how structureless, pointless, or atonal it may be. This ideology opens the door to some artists making what they see as a musical equivalent of The Emperor's New Clothes. But to be honest, if I like the music, I'll be the first to tell the emperor how awesome his outfit is. One argument I hear against improvisational music is "my five year old could do this! This is not music!" which I find to be pretty dumb. I bet your five year old could strum and sing a poppy Beatles tune on the guitar, but that is still music as well. Record your little tyke and if it sounds good enough I'll call him a prodigy. I'm going to take it a step further by embracing a Cageian perspective. Music can exist without intent as well. Listening to lines bang on a flagpole while construction across the street clangs and roars while grindy belches tree times is music as well because if someone recorded that as a field recording it would qualify as music to most. So I take the argument that it's a live performance of such. I think viewing the world as a musical landscape opens it up as a place rife with beauty and makes for a more enjoyable experience overall. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x Last edited by Frownland; 10-12-2014 at 01:37 PM.