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View Poll Results: Rate this album out of 10
10 10 37.04%
9 7 25.93%
8 2 7.41%
7 2 7.41%
6 2 7.41%
5 1 3.70%
4 2 7.41%
3 0 0%
2 0 0%
1 1 3.70%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-22-2018, 08:48 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frownland View Post
By this logic, Edgard Varese is no longer experimental.



You know how you just called all of the tracks standard? Led Zeppelin set that standard by making music that was different for their time. That's where the experimentation lies (because idgaf about their nerdy production, but it's there too if you really want to look). Treating IV as if it were a 2018 release and not a 1971 release is incredibly short-sighted in terms of musical appreciation. I have no qualms with how you rank the record btw, I just think presentism can close you out of appreciating a lot of great art.
I guess the question is should we rate something higher just because it set certain standards? Or should it completely stand or fall on its own merits as music/whether we like it?
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:08 PM   #202 (permalink)
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I guess the question is should we rate something higher just because it set certain standards? Or should it completely stand or fall on its own merits as music/whether we like it?
It's easy to dismiss something older and influential as being primitive, but the whole reason it was influential is because the artist did something very much the **** right, and if you open your mind and ears you could find out that there's something you might actually have been missing. First impressions should not dictate how you judge music.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:12 PM   #203 (permalink)
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It's easy to dismiss something older and influential as being primitive, but the whole reason it was influential is because the artist did something very much the **** right, and if you open your mind and ears you could find out that there's something you might actually have been missing. First impressions should not dictate how you judge music.
Not necessarily: something can be very influential for doing something very much the **** wrong. But, that's not the case here, and I certainly agree about the second part of your post. That's not what I'm asking though: if you listen to something old and it just seems really dated despite how influential it was (say after you've listened to it a few times), should it get any 'bonus points' for being influential in a rating thread like this where we are determining 'classics'?
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:28 PM   #204 (permalink)
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Not necessarily: something can be very influential for doing something very much the **** wrong. But, that's not the case here, and I certainly agree about the second part of your post. That's not what I'm asking though: if you listen to something old and it just seems really dated despite how influential it was (say after you've listened to it a few times), should it get any 'bonus points' for being influential in a rating thread like this where we are determining 'classics'?
I don't think we're talking about ratings, just in how you approach music in general. Obviously the only thing that should matter when rating something is how much you dig it.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:38 PM   #205 (permalink)
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I don't think we're talking about ratings, just in how you approach music in general. Obviously the only thing that should matter when rating something is how much you dig it.
Fair. What prompted me to post is the important line in Frownland's post: "I just think presentism can close you out of appreciating a lot of great art," regarding TechnicLePanther considering this record to be very 'standard'. Is considering something to be dated presentism, despite how influential it may have been? Technic seems to be saying (despite using problematic/incorrect terms) that later bands/musicians simply took what Zep did and made it more interesting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the last people on this forum you could criticize for presentism as I primarily listen to classical music, and great art is timeless.

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Old 02-22-2018, 09:48 PM   #206 (permalink)
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Seriously, 8 individual people said this album was a 10/10, just perfect, wonderful album. It's frankly quite ridiculous.
It’s ridiculous that anyone would dare to give it less. To rate this less than perfect is to misunderstand what it is.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:48 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Fair. What prompted me to post is the important line in Frownland's post: "I just think presentism can close you out of appreciating a lot of great art," regarding TechnicLePanther considering this record to be very 'standard'. Is considering something to be dated presentism, despite how influential it may have been?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the last people on this forum you could criticize for presentism as I primarily listen to classical music, and great art is timeless.
I think what Frown was saying was that judging music's creativity by how it stacks up to music that stood on its shoulders is limiting to your perception.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:49 PM   #208 (permalink)
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It’s ridiculous that anyone would dare to give it less. To rate this less than perfect is to misunderstand what it is.
Any album with "Going to California" gets no perfect rating from me.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:56 PM   #209 (permalink)
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I think what Frown was saying was that judging music's creativity by how it stacks up to music that stood on its shoulders is limiting to your perception.
Well that I agree with, and if that's all he was saying then I readily admit to being a dunce (probably the case, knowing myself as I do).
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:58 PM   #210 (permalink)
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I guess the question is should we rate something higher just because it set certain standards? Or should it completely stand or fall on its own merits as music/whether we like it?
Oh what's up new(ish) dude, good post.

I say that in general terms of determining a classic, influence can definitely boost an album's status because I don't view classic the same way that I do favourites. It's not always a swing factor because the influence isn't always for the better, but I absolutely think that it's something to consider at the very least. Not only to give something more of a fair shake, but because it can help you identify the roots of what you enjoy about music. Albums like this came in at a point where recording was in an upswing, so they had an immense imprint on music in general. It's genuinely difficult to escape some sort of direct or indirect Zeppelin influence because of that impact. Plus, as a musician (he said with one hand down his pants), going to the source can make it easier to extrapolate on those ideas in new ways or to try to identify points in how music evolves and apply that evolutionary approach to other genres.

For the MB classics thread, I give it a little more leeway because if we were just going to do a plain ole classics list then we might as well just post up a few magazine articles. Going closer to our favourites will give our list more personality in the long run. Personally, I really appreciate originality so it gets a bit of swing depending on the record.
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