Janszoon

I tried to read that reddit thread and got nothing out of it. It reminded me of when someone forwards you a six month old email chain at work and is like "see email chain for clarification".

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Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Queen Boo

He's very pro-cop too, not so punk rock if you ask me.

Also he has a marketing degree, that's enough reason to hate a motherf*cker let's be real, and that's like the whole angle of his YouTube channel, how to make punk more marketable, it's antithetical to what punk rock should be about.

And putting aside all the shady sh*t that's already been discussed, his overall persona is incredibly obnoxious, he comes off as a preachy know it all despite his music knowledge being incredibly surface level if not completely nonexistent when it comes to anything outside of 90s hardcore, he's a 40 something dude who still dresses and acts like he probably did as a teenager and he really comes off as a shallow try hard edgelord, if the opinions he expresses are genuinely his and not just him trying to be provocative then he has quite possibly the worst taste in music I've ever seen in my life, he's blindly dismissive of so many broad styles of music, he's always making over the top generalizations (like calling entire fanbases of bands he dosen't like incels) and he's constantly making declarative statements that go beyond contrarian to just shockingly wrong. His audience mostly consists of kids I imagine because they eat up that kinda sh*t, people who are actually part of the punk scene seem to hate him as much as I do.

As for his wife, I think it's fair to say her right wing political views are likely a reflection of his since he basically groomed her, they started dating when she was a teenager and he was in his thirties.

Just a complete scumbag.

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Synthgirl

All good points. I started watching him because it felt nice to relive my teenage scene girl days and watch analytical videos about Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance and such, it filled a niche at the time. But the more I find out about him the more I realize he's a tool. I always kinda thought him kissing Ronnie Radke's ass was a bit sus.

Queen Boo

Anyway I did watch the video and hoo boy it's bad.

Y'all may remember me being quite the indie hater back in the day but hey guess what I grew up, and yet here's a guy in his 40s regurgitating all the same lazy stereotypes that were already getting old 20 years ago. Indie rock is one of the broadest musical categories there is it covers so many different styles and yet he has no problem making the most extreme generalizations about it, saying it all lacks passion and meaning. He's seriously calling Sonic Youth safe and lumping them in with f*cking Munford & Sons? He dismisses Husker Du as nothing but a heavier REM and his go to example is a song from their most commercial, least punk influenced album? Pretty revealing that he uses some girl he knew as a personal anecdote and just comes off as a judgemental assh*le.

Clearly the only purpose of this video was to stir sh*t up and get clicks. If he actually gave a sh*t he could have used this subject as a jumping off point to discuss the commercialization of underground music in general and how terms like "indie" and "punk" are too restrictive and put unrealistic expectations on artists, that would have actually been insightful and interesting but no, instead he just declares that indie rock was always commercial and calls everyone who likes indie music consumerists and all because some of it is used in TV commercials I guess? Nothing to say about how punk rock has been commercialized? I guess not, that would require some self reflection on his part considering he's literally a marketing guy, he'd know a thing or two about consumerism, the nerve of this f*cking guy, seriously.

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TheBig3

Grooming is a non-starter. I'll add a disclaimer to the OP.

I loved indie then and now but I still feel like it devolved into formulaic BS. I just watched Meet Me in the Bathroom and it reminded me of how much of a non-formulaic genre it was in, say, 2003. It reminded me of the early 90s when record execs didn't know what the kids wants and signed all sorts of bands with the only criteria being "not hair metal."

And maybe because I was there in my formative years I'm slightly more offended by the Wes Anderson ethos+twee vocals=avocado commercials.

https://youtu.be/N0_9LWiViVo?t=27

I don't think any genre is original. It all comes from somewhere, but I think coming out of nu-metal saturation, Indie felt like we had a bit more variety again like when Soundgarden played after POTUSOA and before CAKE. I don't really pine for those early 2000s, but I do think the genre has not only become commercialized but also just a sad joke of what it was.

• The Stomp Clap Hey
• The Ironic everything
• For reasons I don't completely get I can't stand the Lumineers

It all sounds the same to me now, and it didn't really used to. When I joined this site, My Morning Jacket, TV on the Radio, The White Stripes, Modest Mouse felt like they were putting out non-formulaic stuff. While I do think (as I said in the opener) he's using a too-wide definition, the accusation that indie seems as commercial as bro-country doesn't seem wildly off base. But maybe this is how the Nazi's get you. They say "we had a zooey deschanel youth, and we're being sold a dakota johnson tomorrow" and then you get a pamphlet about white power or something. I don't know. Maybe I just needed to hear Indie get called out for its bull****.

Feel free to tell me I'm an old man yelling at a cloud.

Lisnaholic

I'd say yes to this idea in general, but would suggest a modification about the whole thing burning out. That may ring true to people like Big3 who were into the genre during the early days, but don't forget that Indie music is also there, available to people like me who came across it in about 2015 and found a sprawling diverse genre that includes some pop stylings with wide appeal and also the early bands that Big3 is enthusing about.

A parallel to me is the career of Pink Floyd: they started out playing improvised pyschedelic music in small underground clubs, went on to fill stadiums with polished, precise Dark Side Of The Moon rock. Some people say Floyd sold out, but plenty more came late to the party and enjoyed not only Floyd's more accessible later material, but the bands that proliferated in their wake.

I wouldn't do that, Big 3, but in the nicest possible way I might suggest that you are an old-timer who wants to wind back the clock to your glory days and you are forgetting that plenty of Indie music that sounds stale to you is going to sound fresh to late-comers like me.

Also, strictly speaking, I would query the word you used in your original question: "consumerist" = "characterized by a preoccupation with the acquisition of consumer goods." I haven't noticed that as a theme running through the Indie music I've listened to. If Indie music is now commercially successful, then it's just joined many other genres, like blues, which these days is a musical product, bought, sold and downloaded, rather than a protest against the hardships of slavery.

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SGR

I'm really not the biggest indie fan, but I found a fair few indie albums last year that I really loved. Per your comment Big3 about indie today not being original and sounding the same, I guess I don't agree. I certainly don't find that it's becoming overly commercialized. Sure, some indie bands today score a big hit or two, but it's the same as it was back in 2003 with the bands you mentioned.

Per the tangential discussion about what music was popular in different decades - and what young people are listening to (or not listening to) - it seems like right now there's not really any kind of unified musical zeitgeist that all young people listen to and engage with. Hip-hop really dominated the mid 2000s, early/mid 2010s. I think it's still the most streamed genre on Spotify (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), but I feel like it's reaching that stage that rock music did in the early/mid 2000s. There's still some great rap albums getting released, but it seems like it's getting a bit stale. Add to that there's no obvious standard-bearer in rap, at least one that's getting constant airplay everywhere. Kendrick I suppose is the closest thing. Back in the early '00s, Eminem and 50 Cent were everywhere. In the mid/late '00s Kanye was everywhere. Early/mid 2010s, Drake was everywhere. But it just doesn't seem like the genre has that kind of ubiquity anymore. Maybe there's no relation, but it feels like with the rise of social media and streaming services (and algorithms), people have become more fractured and isolated and so are their music choices. Instead of radio play/music videos being a driving force of what's popular, young people nowadays start with some songs they like on Youtube or Spotify and the respective algorithms will help them branch out spiderweb fashion to stuff they also might like based on their initial input. I know we've discussed this at least a few times on here before.

Here's a sample platter from the indie albums I was talking about from last year:









I will say, I think during the pandemic, electronic music and house music specifically experienced a bit of a rennaisance in creativity and output and I think it's still continuing today:

Janszoon

I haven't thought about My Morning Jacket in many years but back in the early to mid 00s they were a band I 100% associated with the worst aspects indie. To me, their bland take on indie rock is a precursor to the newer bands that are being complained about here.

I never thought of TV on the Radio or the White Stripes as indie back then or now.

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Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Queen Boo

I like My Morning Jacket tho.

They were actually one of the few current indie bands I DIDN'T hate back then, because they were more influenced by classic rock, which was my wheelhouse.

Much of my hate for indie (and other "scene" music like emo) back in the 00s was just backlash against the hype and the fact that so many hipsters had this obnoxious, standoffish attitude and were constantly sh*tting on the music I liked, so I made hating indie a core part of my personality and as a result I ended up not being any better.

Unlike some middle aged man child who still wears flat brim hats though I eventually grew out of that phase and learned to appreciate indie music on it's own merits and not let annoying fanbases prevent me for exploring art I might actually enjoy, because that's a stupid limitation to put on myself.

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TheBig3

You know Jans, I have to say you're one of my favorite posters. I like your vibe, iirc you're from Philly, I seem to remember you doing something cool like graphic design, you appreciated my Lion Mane-sex line. But this I cannot abide. I mean, "It still moves" ok fine. That was boring. And both Waterfall albums are capital B garbage. But their hits are ****ing HITS.

1. Holding on to Black Metal
2. Highly Suspicious
3. Touch Me I'm Going to Scream, Pt. 2
4. Victory Dance
5. What a wonderful man

Jim James even produced - arguably - the greatest Ray LaMontagne track "Hey, No Pressure"

I DIDN'T KNOW!