Woh guys, if you're going to fight please strip down and get a pool of mud.

Jibber's right, it's the big bang THEORY. Religious groups can't proove theirs A God just as much as atheists can't proove their isn't.

ok.. its basically accepted, and more feasible than something that existed in nothing

Ok.....So I think its past due that I jumped into this thread. My religious beliefs are flexible, I'll listen to anything, discuss mature....blah blah blah. Anyway, I am an agnostic, but was raised in a baptist church, so if I were forced to pick any religion that would be it. Being an agnostic, I pick and choose the best of all the religions. I believe in good works and karma above all else. So I do believe that something is watching out for everyone because miracles DO happen. I no longer attend church or even pray to anything. I've been saved so I'm in the good book and I try to live my life through faith towards an unknown something. So thats my religious introduction.

you cant just pick and choose which parts of which religions you want to follow, then just mash them all together. I'm pretty sure thats what cults do.

Im watching a show on the History channel about lost gnostic texts that were excluded from the Bible. The Book of Enoch, The Gospel of Nichodemus, The Apocalypse of Peter. Very intersting indeed. The gnostics were seen as heretics by the church, so their books were not included in the final cannon (Bible). One thing that particularly caught my interest was in the text of the Apocalypse of Peter. Peter was distrought about so many people that would be goijg to hell. He didnt understand how Jeses could just let them suffer like that, so he asked him why. It said that Jesues told him its a secret, and here's the answer. It is possible to get out of hell. If someone up in heaven looks down and see's those suffering in hell, and asks god for eternal tranquility and peace for all, then god will free everyone from hell and make it a perfect, serene world. Jeses supposedly told Peter that if poeple knew it was possible to escape from hell, then there would be no incentive to live a good, christian life. Stuff like this really makes you think. Christianity is NOT based on the bible. It is based on faith in the holy spirit. Im not sure if I believe any/all of the gnostic texts, seeing as they were seen as heretics and most likely had some sort of grudge against the church, but its still quite interesting none the less.

The church had a grudge against the Gnostics.
Gnostic belief pre dates what we know as Christianity.
The Gnostics believe God is evil. The God that made the material world that is.

Gnostics believe that once we realise the 'truth' (that our souls/spirits are trapped here on earth) then we will be free.

Gnostics see the earth as a kind of Matrix...the film was based on Gnostic belief.

But they still had many of the same beliefs as christians and many of their texts were exponentially more popular at the time than those that ended up in the Bible. It also talked about Mary Magdailne being more than just a friend to Jesus (which is what the Da Vinci code was based upon).

According to the Gnostics, there are two Gods. The God who created earth (evil) and the divine spirit.
They believe that everyone has the spark of the divine spirit in them.
That we have to recognise the higher God (the divine spirit) before we can be released from the material world and the evil God.

When Jesus was asked was he the son of God, he denied it and instead said he was the son of man...because he understood the difference (according to Gnostic belief).

What were their views on heaven/hell/afterlife?

A few thoughts on sin and why the house of cards called organised religion fell apart
 

Here's a simple example on why Christianity does more damage than good. I was raised a catholic and the fear of God was put into me at an early age. When I was boy and just started discovering my sexuality, it didn't occur to me that what I was doing may be wrong. I was happy and carefree. Then I started going to confession ( as a normal part of my christian development ) and suddenly the priests started telling me that what I was doing was wrong. The cure for my wicked ways? Say 5 Hail Mary's and all shall be well. The idea that masturbation was wrong, dirty and sinful had now been planted in my mind. But how can anyone go against their sexuality? Naturally it is mission impossible and therefore I and many other christian boys and girls were destined for years of guilt and shame ahead of us. For what purpose? How does masturbation endanger your soul?

From a logical standpoint, most of the religious rules and commandments stem from certain social necesseties. "Thou shall not kill" is an easy one, if everyone was allowed to kill other people on a whim, society couldn't function and anarchy would prevail. But are we not, in fact, as human beings, with death being the ultimate scare factor, already sensitised enough that taking a life is wrong? Is an atheist more likely to kill simply because he/she is not affraid of eternal damnation? I think not. Not nowdays anyway.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that religious rules were needed because humanity wasn't able to organise itself accordingly without it? Now we have laws, courts, jails and all other elements of an organised society more or less separated from religion. And we function fairly well. A criminal is less likely to commit a crime if you threaten him/her with a life sentence that with an elusive idea of hell.

Also, the prevailing factor on why there are fewer and fewer people in churches nowdays is because the standard of living is now much better than say, 100 years ago. Life is a lot better, therefore, we don't need to put all our hopes in the afterlife as the ultimate comfort-thought ( if life is hell, at least heaven avaits us ).

So back to the starting point, what is the purpose of condemning masturbation? What is the logic behind it? One can perhapse use the same logic as with the obsession with material goods; it detters you from your spiritual life. But how can 30 minutes of one day prevent you from contemplating the unknown? Are there some other logical answers I'm not aware of? If so, enlighten me.

The idea of redemption through confession ( which, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the main reasons why Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic church ) is where the house of cards starts to dissipate. Even if you claim that forgiveness can only be obtained through true remorse and a genuine promise that you will try not to commit the sin again, can you not do that by yourself? Why is a mediator necessary? Priest are only human after all, and we have learned by now that not every priest is a good and pious person. So if we go to the same priest all of our lives, and he turns out to be just as big of a sinner as we are ( if not worse ), does that mean our sins have not been forgiven? And if they are, how can such a person give us clemency?

What about mortal sins? If we confess them, God will not factor them in when we finally meet Him? If I confess a murder and am trully sorry for it, will I be on the same plane as a nun or someone else that has lived their lives according to scripture?

What about those people who have not heard the word of God, some primitive cultures in a remote region of the Amazon for instance? Will they go to hell simply because they were not privvy to the teachings of Christ? If I recall correctly, the Catholic Church has now abandoned the idea of Limbo.

Let me touch on some other paradoxes that The Church has a lot of difficulty explaining. The idea of original sin. We are, if you haven't heard, full of sin even at birth. What happens to a child that hasn't had the good fortune to be arround a priest on the moment of his/her death? The Catholic Church also recently decided that Mary was without original sin, she was concieved and given birth to in a very human fashion, but unlike the rest of us, this elusive idea of "original sin" has bypassed her in some way. They decided it, so it must be so. So what is this "original sin" they talk about? If sex inside marriage ( with the intent of making a child ) is not sinful, why are we sinful at birth? We are still paying for what Adam and Eve did? Can we do nothing right?!

Very similar to Buddism.
That you are doomed to return to earth until you tap into the divine spirit inside us all.
In short we are all a part of the higher God...one and the same, but we have to see the truth to be released. We are God.

Gnostics also believed it was a sin to have children.
Dooming spirits to an earthly existance.

Jesus was Gnostic...he spoke in parables only Gnostics would understand.
The Church sexed it up for the massses and the rest is history (according to Gnostic belief)

Part two of this epic tale
 

And now the issue of homosexuality, at which I'm affraid, it all fell apart.
In Christianity, sex is sinful if it is not intended for procreation. Therefore, masturbation is sinful, so is sex with a condom ( hence a couple of million dead in Africa, woops! ), anal sex and so forth. If you read the Bible ( as I'm sure, many righteous "christians" did not ), you will see that there are no direct condemnations of homosexuality, and certainly not by Jesus.

Here are some very interesting thoughts from whosoever.org on the passages of the Bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality and are often used by homophobes to justify their hate:

Part three ( the epic journey through Christianity continues )
 

Still with me?

Part four ( conclusion )
 

That's it, all the passages that supposedly condemn homosexuality, and can, if you have bothered to read it, be refuted very easily.

When someone tells you love is wrong, that you are sinful even if you haven't hurt anybody...they stop making sense on all fronts, and you stop listening.

:clap:

I dont believe Jesus was gnostic. While no one can be sure (since that was so long ago), its taking the word of the church vs. the word of the gnostics, and it seems that the church's viewpoint is a bit more believable.

But for the politics at the time...the present day church would be Gnostic.

Are you referring to the Catholic church I assume?

Yes. They established themselves at the expense of the Gnostics, who they treated as heretics.
Burnt their books and killed there followers.
Until the Nag Hammadi scrolls were found there was little known about Gnostic belief. http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html



Edit: Kudos to adidasss for one of the most comprehensive and intelligent posts I've ever seen on these boards.

Thanks, I had a bit of free time...;) Although I'm sure the ADD generation won't take the time to read it.

I'll read it when it comes out in paperback.

Oh I totally just read that.

It was extremely enlightening.

Yes you can , it`s called free will

Aww, I'm well proud of you Eth.:beer:

Stop claiming to be in college to impress me.

You can't know God. I do not understand how you as a Christian can tell yourself that you know God.

Not know as in you know who he is. I mean know as in understand him. And you are claiming that you do.


I'm done trying to rationally explain things to you when you obvious do not have any sort of humility when it comes to this sort of topic (and there is a big difference between religion and music).

If you are refering to principles, then yes, you can do that.

If you're referring to the supernatural than you are not an agnostic.

Give me your trailor number, I'll send you a transcript:rolleyes:

Nah it's cool. I don't get mail from community colleges.

You should be so lucky Ian.

Hey fi you want to see one of the better political rants I've seen in awhile, Google Keith Olbermann's commentary on teh state of the union address in 2007 (for 2006).

Whoever puts together his telecasts is a brilliant person.

"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your ****ing mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions." Frank Zappa.

U ever wonder why a lot of preachers don't seem like very good people. Well they're not. A lot of organized religion is big business. If u want to read an eye-opening perspective on Christianity read 'You Are Being Lied To' by Noam Chomsky and other alt. media writers. It looks in a very factual way at how to break down a lot of the myths you read in the bible.

Ooooh, nice quote.

I'd take the Garden of Eden idea as being a metaphor for when humans started to really manipulate their environment, build permanent shelters, farm and eventually form civilisations. One result (of the many results) of these human developments is the emergence of organised warfare, more effective weapons etc. which are bad side-effects of human ingenuity. There are a lot of other bad effects of human developments, many of which weren't even around when the bible was written.

So, if you look at human advancements from one direction only it looks like they are the cause of most of our troubles. We left the innocence and simplicity of the natural 'garden', the state in which we ate what we found and slept wherever seemed comfortable enough and instead decided to take on the world, to try to understand and then manipulate what we found rather than just accepting everything as it was.

Looking at it from the other side, the fact that most people (even in the 3rd world and despite massive population increase) aren't living in a permanent state of near starvation (poor nutrion, yes, but not starvation mostly), nor all dying of hypothermia during the winter, suggests that even at the basic level, leaving the Garden of Eden was a pretty good idea... because had not developed our technology we'd be spending all day looking for berries, hunting animals, gathering wood and getting rained on while trying to hide beneath trees, just to delay our demise for one more week.

Anyway, apples taste nice. And every time you eat one you're sticking your finger up at God.

well i kind-off figured when the catholic church told people they'll burn in hell if they don't donate.

Or scientology?
it costs 3,000 dollars to get to level e-4 or whatever, and by the end of the course your supposed to move objects with your mind. And if you haven't accomplished this task, they ask for another 3,000 to take it again.

Yeah, but think, 1 day u might actually hav the intellectual capacity of Tom Cruise, LOL (Loser of Life)

Basing your entire idea of preachers or pastors on the actions of a select few is ignorant. I agree that some organized religion has grown to be a business, rather than a way to practice your faith, and that saddens me, but for every snake oiler out there, there are a dozen good, honest men of god who want nothing more than to spread the gospel. I've been to small country churches and also huge congregations of several hundred member and I personally prefer the small, close-knit churches myself, but thats not to say that there is something wrong with a church having a large congregation. The more people that hear the word of God, the better. And while there are alot of scam artists out there, most pastors/churches are not. Taking up an offering is essential for most churches. It keeps the lights on, pays the gas bill, and (in the churches I've attended) goes to help less fortunate families or those starving oversas




Edit: shout out to ya for reppin MO boi. We gotsta represent.

oojay doing the organized religion thing, huh?
hey man, I'll be praying for ya, but not in a church
actually I wouldn't mind going to church, maybe it's a lot different where u are, but I can honestly say that around here, pretty much every church I go to, there is a pastor that gets up and tells u how to live your life. I would love to go to a simple praise service, but the one I have in town here for some reason has people working there full time. That's bcuz some churches receive thousands and thousands of dollars every week in donations and charity. If I'm being too judgmental by questioning someone's ethics who sits around in a church all day fielding phone calls for how much $ someone wants to send them (what else would they be doing, working @ church), then maybe I should repent, and trust me, I don't go to church for that either. I'm a very spiritual person who believes in God, and feels very comfortable worshipping him from the confines of my own home, and where ever he takes me throughout the course of my day, without having some preacher send me out on a guilt trip, when I feel like I'm a pretty honest, decent person to begin w/. If you fear the wrath of God, so much that's understandable, but don't get it twisted w/ the authorities in your community wanting to strike fear into you. That's how I view a lot of organized religion. The pastor basically makes himself out to be God. It's so sad that we've become so immoral we have to resort to fear tactics to get people to come to church, and even more sad that people buy into that brainwashing propaganda. Admit it, anyone who goes to church, you fear the judgments of the people in your own community for not going to church more than you fear the wrath of God. Again, this may not be true where you live, but would certainly be true for my area of the U.S.-the midwest. (I.E.-bible belt)

I agree that going to church is not necessary to be a christian (and I use that religion as an example because it is my own religion), but I find that being around people with similar beliefs only instills those beliefs in me more so and helps me to live by them. But to each his own.

religion shows a lack of intelligence