The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread
 

Use your knowledge.

Keep it clean.

Hehe, Bush, what to say about Bush to stop beating around the Bush. Lets put it this way, I didnt listen to his 8 pm speech tonight because it hurts my brain to even hear him. Ask your selves comrades, what has he done in ur lives? Inforce the law? He hasnt fixed anything. Look at North Korea, they now have Nukes that can reach Alaska and Hawaii and with his new 3 stage missiles, N. Korea will reach all of western coast and maybe all of north america. Iran; what help has he done since the 1979 revolution? Nothing, they now almost have nukes them selves. Palestine...? Nothing, road map to peace was a disaster and Israel recently went into Gaza refugee camp and massacred a crowd in protest! Syria has sanctions now, for what? New terrorists that hate us? Iraq? Whats new? We tortured civilians that were probably not even guilty. Because of the patriot act we almost put a innocent American Muslim in jail. We found out that the finger prints were not his. We also shot up a second wedding party and we are trying to cover up the truth. What else can we find in our errors? Sanctions on cuba? Why? Because they are communist? Yet China is too and we love their toys. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? We now have a public that is divided because of lack of leader ship, if you can at least rebuttle this with dignity, then I will listen to u.

Ha ha that was nice...i found myself asking me alot of questions.

We can see a gradual trend in American politics. Its the elite that control the power structure of America. Who motivates the decisions in America? Its always the corporations! There is no coincidence! Why did we attack Iraq? Why Afghanistan? Well think for a second... Who creates bombs and planes? GE, Boeing, all these American companies that have workers that would otherwise not be hiring. Now we are in the middle of war and have young men dying. For what? For an increased inconomic booste? To win an election that is already doomed? Michael Moore is coming out with a new film, there has already been a public backlash from the right wing. New channels like Fox, that have nothing factual to debate or put on the table that is actually fresh. Last week I witnessed one of the best public speakers ever witnessed in my life; Andy Driver. An ex-SAS member. He spoke about how Fox faked some of their war reporting by not being near the front, while CNN was actually in the front lines. He knew this because he was there at Tora Bora, the place in Afghanistan where the Taliban revolted out of the prison. He witnessed first hand how corrupt the US media is getting and this is what is stewing up a right wing conservative view in america. Along with the religious fanaticism rising up in America as well. All this stewing up a mixture of hate towards mainly innoccent middle eastern immigrants that have become american.

Nice.

Well put.

Very knowledgable. Thanks

no problem bud. Ill be on here more often. When ever a new debate arises, never fear calling me over. I like debates, but I like learning from others as well. Anyways, I hope alot of people can rebute what I wrote, I am sure some can. I am not the smartest person on earth. All I want is to go into Quebecois politics and make Quebec its on nation.

nicely done shadowsniper. there was actually a huge debate on the war in iraq a few months ago, went to about 7 or 8 pages as I remember. I was watching a program on CNN a few weeks ago, might have been larry king, but i don't really remember. anyway, they had three political analyists, one a die hard conservative, one who was kind of in the middle, and one a pretty adamant democrat. During a discussion, the conservative voiced his opinions on the actual motives for going to war with iraq. now these aren't his exact words of course, but the general idea. "I agree with you that our government did not go to war on the sole purpose of helping those in iraq, we really don't care about the civillians of iraq. what we really needed was a base in the middle east from which we could develop a pro-american system and attempt to quell hostilities towards america from other nations in the middle east" again, I don't remember his exact wording, but I do KNOW that he said (word for word) "we really don't care about the civillians of iraq"a statement like that wouldn't easily be forgotten. Now of course most conservatives will completely deny this, saying they're main concern has always been and always will be the welfare of the iraqi people, but you have to wonder how true this is. Why now of all times did Bush suddenly feel a surge of compassion towards the iraqi people and decide to overthrow their brutal dictatorial government? because of alleged WMD's? well that's proven to be a bust. links to al queda? no remotely intelligent person can argue that hussein has ties with bin laden. threat to american security? when has hussein made a direct threat to america in recent memory? so that pretty much leave us with the possibility that Bush woke up one day feeling an immense feeling of sympathy for all those poor iraqi;s and decided to spend billions of dollars and end thousdands and thousands of american and iraqi lives to be a nice guy. something wrong with this picture? just maybe there were other perks in going into iraq, like the ability to establish a government with pro-american policies who will allow american corporations to run the oil business, or having a starting off point in the middle east from which to attempt to establish other pro-american governments. just look at other countries included in bush's "axis of evil" when the war in iraq was first proposed. syria, iran, and iraq. now lets think, what do all these countries have in common? all have regimes that are VERY anti-american, and all have pretty huge supplies of oil. ya, i'm sure bush is just concerned about the welfare of all the innocent little syrians and iranians too.

if i remeber correctly he was promising to help out college kids too, somthing about increasing student grants and such, but no, there is still a freeze on student grants, noting has changed, i actually found a figure that said 51 cents of each tax dollar goes to the military, and 5 to education, psshhh.

If we were concerned with the civialians in Iraq, do you really think, we'd have killed 10,000 + innocent people since the war began? I also believe that we are attacking for the sole purpose of organizing a stronghold and gaining authority across seas, since EVERYONE hates America nowadays. Britain says they are still allies, but thats just there government, you wouldnt see many British civialians saying they love America.....

But you can't really blame Bush much, hes not quite smart enough to run this country by himself, he is just everyones bitch pretty much!

Sorry about the word to the end there, lol forgot you wanted it clean... not too bad though

im liking this debate, some very good points brought up.

who cares made a good point, when i refer to bush, i'm actually referring to his administration. I read in a book recently from a guy who was fired from his post in the bush admin. that he would just sit there in the meetings, not saying anything, not giving away any information or changing the expressions on his face, just letting the decisions be debated and decided on while putting in very little of his own imput, not surprising really.

HA HA, IF IT DOESNT CENSOR IT, IM FINE WITH IT!
I LOVE DEBATES...THIS IS GREAT

I WISH INTERACTIVE AND MOBILIZE WERE HERE THOUGH THEY WERE GREAT AT THIS STUFF...THEY OPENED ALOT OF EYES, BUT DIDNT KNOW.

^ i agree, this debate is pretty one sided, which gets really damn boring very fast, we need someone else with different opinions. interactive and mobilize were both good at arguing their points while still making sense and not resorting to immature insults.

So...If your boss fired you, I bet you'd have some lovely things to say about them? Probably not. So I don't see how you can really go off things written in that book.

The one thing that gets me mad is when people talk about "Killing Innocent Iraqi Civilians." When the "innocent" civilians are the one's housing the people we are searching for, trying to attack, what is there to do? Same thing happened in Vietnam, when we refused to attack the Religious buildings in the area. What happened? The Vietnameese hid in the buildings, firing from those areas, knowing we wouldn't attack. I'm glad to see Bush making it clear that if you house these refugees, you are just as much as an enemy to the troops then the actual refugee. Bush had a great administration? No, all the Presidents have sucked. The last person to actually have some intelligence (book smarts) was Bush Senior. Clinton was an idiot, but most people are so blinded by their "Party" that they don't seem to care. Are you telling me Kerry, a guy who bitched and moan about a war he was in after signing up for the armed forces, is gonna be the next great president? If so, give me a break. O yeah, and I've said this before. If you aren't from USA, don't even respond to what I've said, cause you don't know what goes on here, so it's not needed. I've got more to say, but my fingers are cramping.

America has helped out more countries than any other country on the map, often helping too much, and has led to our National Debt. It's not our own buying that has put us where we are. But the one thign that cracks me up...the "huge supply of oil". Yeah, we started this war for oil. Especially when we have oil in Alaska that we haven't cracked. Especially when Saudi Arabia has twice as much oil as Iraq. We decided we'd go to Iraq so we could get second most. Good point. [end sarcasm]. If the war was for oil, we would have totally destroyed everything, which in my point is almost the way to go now with all the resistance. We have been trying to help Iraqi civilians, setting up schools etc, but often they are the spots attacked by the refugees (since we'd least expect it) Often CNN and other news casts are run by Democrats, and FOX is run by Republicans. Very different news casts are on every night. I truly don't trust either 100%. But that's just me.

Good points Alejo, this is why i like these debates...very informative

Whoa whoa whoa our helping other countries has not led to natonal debt our economic problem began in 1913 when the federal reserve banking system was created by Alridge, that is a private banking system that the american government borrows money from all the time so they can fund these unconstitutional agencies and departments. Also I agree that the whole reason we are in Iraq is not for oil, no we are there becasue in Bush's childish mind he is walking in Daddy Bush's footsteps, or somebody in Iraq pissed off a rockerfeller,rothchild,or Kennedy and as far as great presidents whose to judge? The american people who have been blinded by media and "patriotic acts" it is humorus to me that we can look back at John Brown with views of a patriot and with sorrow but look at Robert E. Lee as a biggot and murderer. But this is because our educational system is controlled by socialist bastards that were allowed in this country in the 1800s thinking they could better our government with the kissing cousin of communism and are now dumbing down americas youth so that free choice is a thing of the past and there is now more freedom, just contentment.

My fantasy/sci-fi Lit teacher was telling me about this book written by a retired teacher in NY called Dumbing Us Down , although i can't remember his name. But anyways, the teacher was awarded the teacher of the year award for the entire state of NY the year he retired. Afterwards he wrote this book which basically says that the government is intentionally restricting education so we all become sheep for the elections and everything. I thought that this was very interesting, because a respected educator wrote it and it also shows a reason why many Americans follow and support the war in Iraq without really knowing anything about it what-so-ever.... especially the people in my stupid ass hick town! LOL

That was a very very informative reply you had there. Thankx for the detail, I just want to add and modify a bit on what you said though. The only thing I dont agree on was that there are links with Al-Qaeda. Any remotely intelligent person will know that Iraq had no ties at all with Al-Qaeda. Several fundemental differences exist between Saddam and Osama. Its like comparing Hitler to Lenin. Know both of them have power, but their intentions are like night and day. Hussein was a secular person, religion was a means of control, not a reason to control. His sole purpose was to create a state in the middle east that was the leader of the arab people. He even let women go into universities to persue careers and he wasnt fundamental at all, he just wanted a modern arab state. The shining beacon upon a hill if you will. Hussein was helped into power by the US in the first place. He was given tons of weapons by not only Americans, but Europeans. He collected warcrafts from many countries actually. On a military airport you could see the best airpower from many countries that he purchased these items from. Example, he had French Mirage Jets, he had U.S.S.R. MIGs, he had American F-16, etc. He had T-72's and other tanks. Most of his firearms were Soviet as well; plenty of Ak-47 and Ak-74, as well as modified Ak's produced by the communist Chines. Hussein had the 4th largest standing army on earth before the Iran-Iraq war. The U.S. had suffered from the chaos produced from the overthrow of the US puppet in Iran (the Shah) that let the revolutionaries capture the US embassy and take hostage the diplomats there. The US tried a ops operation to save them but it was a disaster and the US hasnt talked to Iran from then on. So the US to take back on Iran gives and sells weapons to Iraq, these INCLUDE chemical weapons! At the same time, the US was trying to profit as much as they could, so instead of incouraging ONLY Iraq to win, they also sould Chemical and other weapons to Iran. So you can imagin the slaughter produced by such weapons and the aftermath of such a war. Iraq basically won but they hit a deal with Iran that made the war a stalemate. Iraq couldnt handle more casualties. So Hussein finds him self as no long being in such a great position, his glorious army couldnt over run the positioned Iranian army. His country was in debt now and the infrastructure was in ruins. All these countries that were supporting Hussein with oil before the war turned their backs on him. Hussein asked them to clear his debt for him like they did for the UK at some point I believe. Hussein created a rich country by kicking out all the American and other foreign companies out of his country that were taking his oil. He then nationalized the oil and made the country the most prosporous country in the middle east. Now we have to understand that there was not much oil coming out of Iraq because many of the oil rigs were damaged from the war and after the war Kuwait purposefully pumped a surplus of oil into the market, this created a downing of the prices and Iraq couldnt compete! Kuwait didnt want to clear the debt and Hussein even warned the US in advance that they will invade if Kuwait doesnt clear the debt. They ignored Hussein. Saddam had another intention in conquering Kuwait, he stated that Kuwait was a former Iraqi province. And it was! Kuwait was divided and taken away from Iraq when the British divided the land into mandates they controlled. So with his threat out and no opposition, he rolls into Kuwait and then the US realizes that soon enough, Hussein could even conquer Saudi Arabia if they wanted to and thus would have a virtual monopoly on the oil coming out of the middle east. "OH NO!!!" So to boost the US economy once more and impose friendly dictatorships in the middle east, the US leads an attack on Iraq land kuwaiti land. When I say "lead", they lead more with words then actions. The British actually were the forerunners in most battles because they were smart and used diesel on most of their war machines and this helped because the supply convoys only needed to bring one type of oil instead of many types of oil like the US had. The US oil also evaporated in heat, so here the US is in one of the hottest places on earth and they have evaporating oil. :S For the most part, this made them incapable of leading and so the UK took the lead. The US was only running 1/3 of what they thought they would and the UK was running the 3/3 that the US thought they would be running. Besides this technical stuff. What happened was that the US actually had support of the UN through a resolution and the US attacked. They "liberated" Kuwait from one dictator and imposed the another dictator. The US didnt want a major war, so they didnt push into Iraq much. Just enough to destroy most of their tanks. They used airplanes to bomb the Cra* out of Iraq though and they damaged alot of water pipes. Saddam claimed a victory because the US didnt move on and conquer Iraq. Later on, in 1998, the US restarted the bombing of Iraq because of WMD. So here we are. Hussein has a destroyed country, the water system is destroyed, the country has sanctions and the only way for the people to get food is by trading in REALLY REALLY cheap oil for food. So the US is profiting from this program of course and they are getting cheap oil, perfect! These sanctions kill around half a million kids and women though, to bad. They cant send any water pipes to fix things because these pipes can supposedly be used dually by not only getting water to homes but they can also be used to create atomic bombs. So we never let them have water instead and let them die. That really creates peace brothers, especially when a kid loses his family and the only murder in his eyes is the cause of the problem; the US. "There is nothing worst than someone who has nothing to lose." In 2003, we figure that Saddam is still a really bad guy and he still can afford WMD. Bushs dad was almost assassinated by Saddams' spies, so he has to pay. We dont mention how the US tried to kill Saddam many times. The same goes for Castro, we tried to kill him like 8 times. How paranoid would you get? No wonder the guy kills any dissenter. I probably would too. So now the US attacks and they win, OMG, WHAT SUPRISE! Never thought we would have such a victory against a 3rd world country. So bush embarks on that ship by landing on it with a jet. Im a warrior now, look at me daddy. So the gates come down, now what do we do? Well lets give kids candy like wwII. Well the kids love it, "yey, America". After there is no more candy around and after the kids have parents that die because of the looting and crisis after, they start taking up rifles. When US soldiers are kicking down doors and asking everyone to give up those weapons they cherished for years and are part of their culture. When troops get near their most religious sites. When the US doesnt protect everyone, doesnt give them proper money, food, water, electricity.

continued...


Some revolt, not many, but then things pick up. Falluga decides to up the anti, Sadr decides to releave them a bit by revolting too. Baghday citizens have to drive to falluga to give the needed food and water because the city is being besieged by american tanks. So there is a deal, Falluga is no longer in siege, but at a price. Those generals in charge of the city before the war, well those same ones are put back in place to take charge and help the people. These same Generals are not talking behind americas back and fighting them. Solution huh? Temporarly, same as whats going around all of Iraq and same as whats going on in the US. This is all a temporary conflict to create fear in us and have Bush be the "father" figure. Sounds like hitler to me. The guy we put in place to take charge of things, well we recently figured out he was a crook. Oh, not only that, but he supposedly gave Iran secret information, that is so sensitive that it can get Americans killed. Iran has over 14,000 spies in the country. We abused detainees now, we shot up another wedding party. We are breaking international laws. The world hates us because we are arrogant as much as a French man (I am one by the way and no I am not arrogant, I am from Canada) and now we are calling on the world to fix our problem. To go out of their way and pay for us and give us troops, to save our master plan to ruling the middle east politically and economically. Cuba got rid of the US in their revolution and now they have a country with only their own businesses, but we couldnt handle that so we put sanctions on them. Not even a month ago, we put sanctions on Syria as well. So whats going to happen? Well, Ill tell you whats going to happen. The same reason the US put Saddam in power (to stop Iran from spreading its borders into a shiite country like Iraq -Iran is shiite majority as is Iraq- and making a Shiite superpower that takes over Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia that has alot of oil), well this same reason that we put him in power and then we decided to take charge our own selves because he wouldnt listen, well we are failing at it. We we lose, what will probably happen is that Iran takes over Iraq and then we have a greater problem. What would then happen is that Iran will actually get a Nuke, not Iraq, no brother, you have been lied too. Then Iran gets long range ballistic missiles from North Korea. Oh yeah, we forgot about them because they have no oil. We are even taking troops out of South Korea now, because we are out of troops for Iraq, because countries are now realizing they have been lied to and they are taking their troops back. Spain, Dominican Republic, Honduras, and other nations have taken their troops out and other nations are threatening to take them out. We had Iran surrounded by both sides like we wanted (Iraq on western front, Iran in the middle, Afghanistan on eastern front), but now we are losing that. The Taliban are actually killing US soldiers almost daily but the news isnt covering it because they dont want to lose focus. Why do you think the beheading was made a big deal out of? Because we had news about torture that stained our image. Daniel Pearl, remember him, though u didnt, he was the journalist that was beheaded, oh yeah, they didnt say that on the news, they just said executed. Trust me he was behead, I have the video. We didnt speak out in outrage then, only when we see fit. Well, when Iraq falls, Iran is the country I think will take over for sure. Afghanistan, maybe Taliban, if not, then certainly Iran. So what do we have now? A country that hates us (Iran) and a country we hate having much more power and oil now! YEY. I am done, tired of writing. Just check the news everyday, its fun when your informed and this was the closest history lesson your probably going to get out of a person since you live in America and schools are cencosered. Bye

ok, I am out, I posted past the exceeded limit, thats when you know you rambled on and on. Sorry peeps. Later.

Yeah, I read that too. Weird guy that Bush. I also think its Rumsfeld and especially Cheney, that oil sucker. Evil people for sure. The only one with Dignity is Powell I find.

Oh how lovely, an instigator. My fingers dont hurt so let me take up the lead. You can go off anything first of all. Everything is propaganda, but reading both sides gives you a more enlightened view of the situation. So never say you cant go off the book. Bush never publicly denied what the book speaks about anyways, so he isnt saying its not true.

Another thing, when a civilian shelters a "terrorist" its sometimes because the TERRORIST has a GUN to the guys face. Are you going to shoot the civilian who is a victim as well? Lets make it a killing frenzy, shall we? I do not recall people hidding in religious buildings in Vietnam, they sure arent Mosques or Cathedrals for sure. Are you talking about Monestaries? Even if they did, it wasnt a big factor and if they did, the US would be doing the same thing they are doing now in Iraq; going through them. Vietnamese deserve their victory... They faught stronger than any soldier I have ever heard of and they even beat the French, I studied these battles and even if I am French, I can admit that they deserve that victory. They probably lost more soldiers than both the US and France did and they dug those tunnels not with bulldozers but with hand and shovel.

I also think you made a mistake with your terminology there bud. A refugee is not a terrorist, thats probably because the news portrays palestinian refugees so much we havent separated the work terrorist and refugee. A refugee is a person who flees an area because of natural disasters or any other turmoil. They are homeless people. So if you want to bash on the homeless and say they are enemies. Well you have alot of killing to do in your nation alone because last time I checked there are alot of those in Baltimore, Chicago, NY, and other major metropolitan areas.

Bush Senior book smart? Well of course I think he has more experience then I, he is much older and a university graduate. Why would I argue that... Smart compared to other men in his field before and after him, I think not though. Roosevelt? Wilson? Jefferson? I am a foreigner living in Florida and I can tell you more about your own history, sad indeed my friend. Clinton, omg, how can you even speak in such a tone about him. He wasnt rich like all these other elites, he worked his way up the social ladder in this country and got his education in England. No, not the colonies, he got his education in the mother country, the Sun never sets on the British empire. John Kerry was a soldier like any other person and he got his medals to prove his own courage. While Bush didnt even show up to camp, lol. I dont see what the problem is with people complaining about someone trying to fight against a unjustified war. Kerry was protesting like MANY people in this country. If you want to justify a war in which we lost thousands of soldiers for a cause that was not even rightus. America was fearing the domino effect, I dont see communism everywhere now. Even after Vietnam became communist too. We preach democracy and yet we dont let people decided their own fates on what government type they want. If people in Iraq want a theocracy like Iran, why dont we respect their differences and actually work towards peace? Its not like all middle eastern countries are bad or like the koran is the book of the devil. Muslims are really related to Christians and Jews in views on religion, I dont see what the great fuss is about. Sure their are some really extreme people, but I see many other those knocking on my door on Sunday mornings while I am trying to sleep.

Last thing before I lose my temper and lash out. If your not from the USA dont respond. What is it with u man. If you had more respect for other people, I wouldnt bash on you. But ur asking for it. To inform you, I am not FROM the USA, but I live here. Its not me and my self in the world bud and you have to realize that if most foreign people criticize the US, its because there is a reason to and instead of blocking it out, you could actually be unarragent and listen and try to fix the source of the discord. I know many immigrants that are smarter than Americans who never went out of their homes or experienced other cultures. I also know many smart Americans. Those are the ones who acknowledge that we are a melting pot culture. Those are the ones who admit they them selves foreigners who come from distant lands onto conquered Native American land to persue a common goal; the American Dream. Know that you live in a democracy and that if your not happy with how the world views you and your fellow citizen, you can always vote for the better candidate and change that perception the world has of you. Right now, the world doesnt like the US that much. You probably know that and I am really sorry for that view because America has so many things and America is really fair when it comes to many things. I just dont like this capitalist, individualist, materialist, egocentrical, right wing, conservative, fundamental baptist religious, and militarist view and stand point the US has adopted. Sept. 11 happened for a reason and we have to try to figure out why. Slashing out against all Muslims will only create more terrorist and I think we are now starting to figure that out with new warnings of possible attacks soon. Figure out the source of the problem and fix it. You could start looking into why people become "terrorist" and if its connected to poverty first of all. Anyways, rambling again. Later.

holy crap shadowsniper that was hell of alot of writing. awesome points there. now on to alejo. i think the phrase "if you're not from america you can't offer an opinion" should be banned from these forums. do you actually think thats a valid argument? that's a nice conveinient way of trying to shut down any intelligent opposition of your opinions, but it doesn't work, it just makes your following arguments seem weak and pathetic. news flash, the entire friggen 1st world knows what goes on in the US, thats one of the effects of things like the interenet and television. sure the media is biased, but there is no reason for why the opinions of non-americans are less valid than those of americans, so just stop saying that, seriously, its gotten old. FYI, I made a mistake about the guy that wrote that book, got two books mixed up. I was thinking of an ex CIA agent who worked for the clinton admin, and then was fired. this guy was an independent journalist who interviewed everyone in the bush admin (privately, no cameras or other people present) including bush and wrote about the interviews in the book. it's called plan of attack by bob woodward, read i if you get the chance. another point, oil in alaska. contrary to popular belief, there's not all that much oil in there, certainly not nearly as much as is in iraq, syria or iran. plus, in case you haven't noticed, the world's oil supply isn't unlimited, and now more than ever there are more demands for stakes in the worlds oil supply. used to be that the US and a few other developed countries in the world were the main consumers of the world's oil supply. other countries used it of course, but nothing compared to the amount used by the US. now that many undeveloped countries are begining to strengthen their economy, they're wanting the same quality of life we have. china is one of these countries, with its huge population, once a substantial portion of their population attains enough money, there's going to be a huge demand on oil that simply isn't there at the moment. one expert predicted (can't remember his name at the moment, i'll get back to you on it) that by the year 2024, china's economy will be the strongest in the world. this means billions more people are going to want to buy cars, which means they'll need oil. so don't you think that the US would want to gain control over that as much as possible before that happens? and one more point, the whole issue of iraq did not come up after 9/11. there are documented meetings in which the bush admin discussed going to war with iraq, long before the attacks of 9/11 and long before terrorism was a huge issue in US politics.

Inform your self before you say the US has helped out more countries than any other country has. Ok, first of all, you have the greatest economy! Of course France or Germany cant give as much as you. The thing that is a better index at telling if your helping out more is the percent of your GNP that your spending on aid to other nations. Compare that # to the % spent on defense, you will see where I am coming from. We spend more money on military than our own school and health system. I am from Canada and we have universal health care, we get more taxed for it, but thats also a reason we have more trouble sending help to other nations. Even if this stands true, we still have a larger % of our GNP sent to other nations in aid. I dont know what your refering to and if its the World Bank or IMF your speaking of, well let me tell you they arent part of the American Government and they are screwing up the world anyways.

What made you go in debt was not AID, we havent increased it!!! We werent in dept as much as we are now before. So if the aid has been a constant, whats the variable? OH!!! September 11th and the small depression we had and omg, let me guess, the WAR!!! We spend more than 1 billion, listen to those coins fall, not 1/2 a billion, but a billion dollars A WEEK on military operations in Iraq.

And if you want to go drill in Alaska, a place where you get much of your fish, well your the one who wants to eat mercury and oil filled fish. Go ahead, do that. The smartest thing you can do I guess. Alaska will not give us that much oil first of all and it wont benefit us in the long run because of the cost and effect of drilling there. You have to understand that the oil in Alaska needs a lot of refining to do while the oil in the middle east is just pumped up like having a straw in a drink. Alaskan oil is oil that has dirt and other residue in it.

There is a reason we didnt attack Saudi Arab! Why would u think that? OH, because we have like maybe just a little amount of soldiers and bases there. Even airport at that. They are our allies too. Weird, most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi. Hm, they are our allies? Yeah, we call them our allies. The family in rule are dictators, but we love them that way, just like we liked Saddam. Why would we make our intentions obvious? Lets just attack the second most and we wills till have alot of oil and we cant be blamed for our intentions because if oil was our main reason, than we would of attack Saudi Arabia. But wait, they are larger and more developed. They also have our weapons and they also havent been bomb the bejesus out of them for more than 10 years and they also dont have sanctions on them and they also didnt try to assassinate daddy bush and they also are not next to Iran, want me to continue? They also dont have WMD like we provided to Saddam and they also didnt shoot scuds at our little buddies the Jews. Want me to go on? My fingers are now starting to hurt, so I will progress to better things.

We destroyed everything? Hm, I thought that was before the war? Back when they didnt think of this grand plan. During the war I heard they tried not to shoot electrical plants and water system. Wherent the lights on in Baghdad while all hell broke loose and the bombs fell in "shock and awe"? I know your agreeing with me now, because thats what you said, you said they didnt destroy everything and they would of if we wanted oil. Ok, when you say everything, shooting or destroying every important building is not going to kill the people who are attacking us now. We are being attacked by dads, kids, and families. So if your solution was to just nuke the place and get ride of everything, then your just an idiot, but Ill be optimistic and assume you just generalized and didnt mean everything. Because you know that if you destroy many buildings or "everything" like you said, that includes the oil refineries we will need to REBUILD and SPEND AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS ON. So spending more money and time to destroy everything and rebuild everything, thats ur solution? I guess not. Your just saying we should now because people are shooting us from Mosques. So lets shoot the mosques like we did like 2 weeks ago and lets make 1 billion Muslims around the world pissed off at us more then they are already and make not 10,000 terrorist but 1 million or 2. Either way, ur arguement makes no sense and your being general.

So I guess the only reason to "attack" Iraq was to save the poor Iraqis then. Because we magically care for the citizens of a country we sanctioned for more than 10 years. Makes sense in ur head I guess. We like spending money on people we dont know and we have favorites now and I assume Iraqis are the only ones we want to help. Or we just want to start helping them then cure the plague and disease that we think is engraved in the minds of all those extremists. So we go there and have a foothold now in the arab land and now we can embark on our renewed crusade, like a born again christian. Then again we have Saudi Arabia, our little buddies, the ones who beat their whives and stone people. Those people arent suffering, we shouldnt help them, the Iraqis are suffering. Not those beat up whives.

So we are helping Iraqis so much, we really didnt expect them to attack back at us. No, for sure, we take their country and we expect them to be submissive. What is it with you man? If someone took the US, I would be mad too. Give me the gun and I will fight the infidels, of what ever you want ot call them. We do the same thing, but we go ravage other places that havent attacked us here. We first fought the infidels, then the communist, then those drug lords that we never seem to find and we always have more and more drugs, why not legalize them? Dont know really. Christians would flip like inverted crosses. Then we blame it on the "terrorists", the reasons for war always change and the intent always the same; conquest. This American nation is an empire that was based on good intentions but has grown sour. I pray that someone fixes this hate and destruction before we turn into something like the book 1984 speaks of. Fox news is just our telescreen. Let big brother (bush) speak to us directly with his radio and tv addresses. Nothing significant is spoken about but we always know that the enemy is on us and they are plotting and we must build more arms then them or attack them first before they do. Dont u see the similarities? We attacked the Taliban without credible proof! Dont get me wrong, I do think the Taliban helped Al-Qaeda, but I also look at the hypocrosy of judging before proven guilty approach we have to world politics. So anyways, I am out. Try to debate against the truth and die failing.

Nice!!! Actual referencing. Good points but I also have to disagree with something, but I wont argue it because we arent discussing this subject anyways.

I just dont agree about socialist bing the cause of problems here. I am a socialist and I have to also point my finger to the European nations right now under a socialistic government and the standards of education they have. They top any of our schools and they have free universities. I dont really see the negative in that. I just dont think the poor should not be allowed to have free schooling and health, I think those are universal and a privilege of the state. Anyways, sorry. Good points though.

Nice. I agree. I also have to state how I find that the south is way more christianized, but in a bad way, in a more fundamentalist way. Alot of them voted for Bush because he is a "born again" christian and I think that most major cities shelter more intellectuals than the south "hick" towns. I know I live in the south. I recently dated one of those fundamental people, o god save me.

Hats off to you. Yeah, its Bob that wrote the book, my friend has it and I read exerpts. China is growing so fast actually that the government is trying to slow it down because an economy that is out of control could create inflation or it could just explode and create a great depression afterwards. A large reason for oil being low right now is because of China actually and I am really tired of the whining about the gas. In England its more than 5 dollars a gallon and other nations have it worst. Chinas military is also a major concert to the US. I dont think its that big of an issue. I just say, stay out of their way and if they want Taiwan back, dont fight them about it. I think countries ultimatly want peace but some have immidiate needs they want to fullfil, but of course we cant make mistakes for dictators like Hitler, some countries want power and all powers at all means. I dont think there are many such countries in our world right now like that, other then Bush.

I also heard about those meetings they had. Cheney, Rumsfeld and I think Bush were part of an organization that met to talk about how to secure Americans future and one of their documents spoke about taking over a middle easter oil country.

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......
That's why he gassed his own people? A wonderful man....Please don't talk about how wonderful a man Hussein is, it flaunts your ignorance.

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote
Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?

True...or maybe he just didn't think it was even worth commenting on.
True, there is nto as much oil in Alaska as there is in Iraq. The US has oil stored bought in the 60's? Know that? Probably not. US and Alaksa use natural gas as a power source more than any other countries. US also uses coal as much as any other country. Also using Nuclear power plants, so trust me, Oil is important, but not as much as YOU think. Why do you think all car companies are searching for the Solar powered car? Maybe noticing the decrease in importance of oil? Just maybe.
When people say stuff like that, it gets to me. That's like saying rich people should give more to the poor. "Robin Hood", true words from a democrat. Nice. If you've lived in the US, you would understand why we don't have universal heath care. Increase taxes by a cent and you hear people complain, it just won't happen.

Wow, i just read the rest of what you said. The Crusade, it sounds like a Canadian. Idiotic, so I'm not even gonna respond. Haha, this made my day. I gotta go send this to people. It takes a true conspiritor to think of something like that. Good stuff...

Foreign Aid in the United States increased by 5% in 2002, for whichever idiot said we haven't increased foreign aid.

In 2002, we donated 15,000+ million (about 15200) in foreign aid.
The next closest was Japan, with 8,000+ million (about 8400).
Canada is about 2,000+ million (around 2300)

So we almost double any other country in foreign aid. Trust me, if we cut these aids, we could be out of debt in reasonable time. But everyone would complain if they didn't get their aid, yet they DO complain when we want to have a say in what goes on in their country? Why, we give you the money, we SHOULD have a say in what goes on. Otherwise, don't take the money.

In 2002, Americans privately gave 34 BILLION dollars overseas. So add that to the older number, and you see alot of money going around. Gotta go get dinner though.

Damn...i think ill reasd this when im REALLY bored.

Truly we should move it or close it. This is the punk music forum...this is general discussion. I don't know why it was started.

First of all. His own people? Well if your concidering Kurds his own people... Kurds dont even concider them selves Iraqi. They are the largest ethnic group on earth without a nation. They happily would take over north Iraq to try to create their own nation. Why do you think Hussein gassed them? Because they revolted against him. No one has been able to impose law in Iraq before and they revolted against the British in 1920.

I present to you facts and you make it sounds like I am justifying him or making him sound great. If the facts are more justifying of his actions or make him seem better, maybe its because you had such a devilish view of him that when you hear something a little better then you think they are trying to make him sound like a god. Of course he is horrible, he tortured people. He would put explosive packages on people and blow them up in the middle of the desert (I know, I have video of it), he would tie people on poles and have firing squads shoot at them (I also have references to that), why dont try to twist my perceptions to try to make people think I am a Nazi, fascist or any other negative attachments. I at least support things with facts and dont present much opinion. Whos flaunting ignorance?

So if you think foreigners dont know much because they dont live here, how can you do the same and think they are force fed information? Do you watch their news? How do you know this? Please dont talk about others doing something you dont like and then do it; dont be a hypocrit.

Why dont you try to also see you are listening to propaganda your self, not from volentary news medias, but by government agencies like the military. Which one has more twisted reports? The military sells out wars and justifies them selves to try to make their soldiers moral higher. How dramatic would it be if a soldier totally didnt want to fight. If the news is negative, thats maybe because the negative is more important. Good news is there to be bathed in, bad news is presented to be fixed. Obviously there is alot of fixing to do recently. If you want to live in ignorance, thats fine. I dont though. If they are bad and you cant say something back by facts to oppose it, then its because its true.

The higher ups know about military operations, they dont know much about politics, economics, justifications, or other things that are more retrospective and wide.

With Castro, well we didnt want change in Cuba before. We already did that, it was during the Spanish-American war! If baptista was there, its our own fault. He was as worst or worst than Castro. So I guess your solution is to starve people into having a revolution? I think it does the opposite, it makes people hate the country impossing sanctions. Its always showed as superficial problems. Its simple, you dont like communist because they wont suck up to you, not because you care for their people. America doesnt really care for other people than its own interest. Why would they, I wouldnt really care for other peoples around the world if I was president, well not really, I would, but I have priorities. Its common sense. Why do we "support" or not have sanctions on China? They are communist... According to you, we should have sanctions on them too. Well they dont, why? Because they bring in the cash.

Dont ask me why we didnt attack Saudi Arabia, I already had like 3 paragraphs on all of that. If your open and want to learn, I suggest you stop being lazy and read my previous posts, why I posted so much is because I need to straighten things out. I see alot of superficial facts being brought up and the truth is never investigated. Go read now if you want to continue a debate on subjects like Saudi Arabia.

We werent satisfied with inspections in Iraq because they didnt have any. We were maybe convinced they had some because we only listened to these people who are from there that were interested in creating a war in their own profit. That truck container that was supposedly making chemical weapons was actually a farming truck for insectacides. Those barrels you found were also the same, I know, I could read the french labels on them. Maybe you could hire translators. Even your inspectors cant find the WMD. Of course they were probably hidding stuff, how would you react if a country that was going to attack you soon was checking out all our strategic stuff. So let me guess, we are going to take all your weapons away and we will then attack you... How do you want them to react?

I didnt forget those missiles he wasnt supposed to have. I am not an idiot and I dont have this problem with forgetting things like that. What did Saddam order when we found them? Maybe your forgetting. He slowly started destroying ALL of them. Oh, but then you still attacked and he couldnt use them against you. So that was smart of him I guess... The UN has no power any more, we can see how America has their finger on the UN. The UN couldnt stop your illegal war, how much power do u think they have. All these UN sanctions are because of how you control the whole Security Council. Anyways, sorry if I sounded like I am blaming Americans, I am not. I am blaming this administration. I live in America and I love it. I have nice friends and there are alot of nice people. Just a couple redneck ignorant people who live for the army and navy, and military might of this nation. Like those who support that star wars system. Its a stupid system that will fail when 1000 missiles are launched at once and only one of them contains a actual nuke and we can only destroy 10% of them. Anyways. To you now chap.

Waw, u obviously dont read things completely because u would of already know I am a Québecois. There is a difference if you would know what it was. I was showing an example, but I guess you cant read or take things and understand them for what they are for. Um, I live in the US as Thrice knows too. I guess you again didnt read. The reason we dont have electric cars is not because we dont know how to build them but because Ford, GM, and other car companies have implications with Oil companies and would lose money. Not only that, but you would have to change all the gas stations and convince them that building these new pumps would not make them lose money and its an actual investment that will grow. Thats hard.

Why dont you give the private funding # from other nations?

Of course you send more money, you have more money and can afford to give more. Are you expecting the dominican republic or Haiti to give more many then you? Of course not, Canada cant afford to give much more than that either. We have universal health care. If you take it in purportion to the GNP though, you can figure out that the US could be giving more.

LOL, like 15,000+ million will take you out of debt!!! HAHAHA. Hey, not long ago we asked for a extra 85 BILLION on just Iraq, the war will have cost us way more than 200 BILLION to date!!! Hm, you, debt is coming from somewhere. Oh and we are asking for more money now, more than 20 BILLION till the elections for Iraq, because we need more armor now on Humvees and we need replacement parts, oil expenses, helmets, etc. The debt is around 4. something TRILLION, um, yeah, look at those previous figures and tell me something. Obviously your talking above what you know.

Thrice and I decided to start it. Its fine, Thrice is a moderator and he approves. Plus, its titled Bush Debate, so its not hard to figure out whats being discussed.

he means punk section should involve music, hes right. but i was thinking anti-flag, and nofx when i posted...so theres my incorporation of music.

Couldn't find the numbers, just public funding for all, which was majority larger for US. Also, I would care to bet that US has more private funding...wanna take it?
Jeez, why do you care so much about yourself. You should give to the poorer countries. [end sarcasm] That's what would happen if we did the same thing. Double standards Rule!!! You say 15 billion a year wouldn't add up. Especially when we gave billions of dollars after World War 1, and millions of dollars after World War 2.

True again that the US would take a hit if we switched from oil (or decreased importance of oil) but the idea of becoming more self-dependant (which I hope we become) is truly more important. Gas stations would not need to switch, they would be terminated.

Ugh, obviously you did forget. We found these weapons after we invaded and were searching through Iraq. Dip****.

The higher-ups know more than you think. A lot more, so don't talk about friends of family like that. People make it out to seem that military don't want to be there, they don't have support, families want their children back home. In Norfolk, we want them to stay and finish the job they have started. It will costs more lives to leave than it will to finish. And I believe we will do this, even IF Kerry is elected. What makes you think another President will do better? Or is it the "Anything but Bush idea".

And bringing back an old topic, you said that Bush Senior was not as book smart as Roosevelt or something to that extent. I was comparing him to recent Presidents, like the last 20 years. But that's okay, twist away.

Sanctions are justified on Cuba, and there is truly nothing you can say about that. We have found the testing labs for WMD's, we have found human testing sites for WMD's, we have found what we believed we would find. News media says we have not "found WMD's" because they don't see a huge pile of nukes lieing around. I'm not reading the rest of what you said, because it's beating a dead horse. And to say there is an incorporation of music is a joke. Tell me one musical thing said in here about a band. There isn't. You post in the mod only forums about others making off-topc posts, yet this is the same thing. You want people to share your views so you put it here.

I'm done with this thread, because it has no point in this forum. But please keep on twisting facts, maybe you can change the mind of an eight year old out there.