Literal Interpretation of the Bible. (Religious, quote, Ching)

MHDTV · 07-04-2007, 11:02 PM

That's because Plato is science and has been proved. Don't you think it's kind of ridiculous to say "well, all the important parts survived". Don't you think that some self-serving bastard would have changed something important at one point?

Pilzkopf · 07-05-2007, 04:16 AM

A short summary of The Bible Against Itself: Why the Bible Seems to Contradict Itself, by Randel McCraw Helms:

Quote:

If you open up the Bible and read it straight through, you will notice two things that should not be true if it had been written as a coherent whole and with a single purpose. First, the Bible is quite repetitious; second, the Bible frequently seems to contradict itself. Randel Helms examines the cultural and historical factors that produce these seeming contradictions.

All books were written for or against some point of view, and the books of the Bible are no different. Bible book authors were often motivated to write because they wanted to challenge or correct those who had written before them. As Helms explains, "The Bible is a war-zone, and its authors are its combatants. Paul said of Peter, 'I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong (Gal. 2:11).'" Helms notes that Jeremiah condemned the entire religious establishment of his time--the very same people that other Bible authors held in highest esteem: "prophets and priests are frauds, every one of them" (Jer. 8:10). Luke felt the need to write another gospel even though "many writers have undertaken to draw up an account of these events" (Luke 1:1). Luke obviously felt that Mark's gospel was filled with errors and edited it freely. Not even Mark's account of the words of the dying Christ was left unaltered.

How the author of Chronicles I & II white-washed earlier historical accounts of Saul, David, and Solomon.
How the book of Ruth was written to challenge the growing racism of religious reformers of its time.
How every apocalyptic book of the Bible struggled to reinterpret some earlier failed Bible prophecy.
The war of "Wisdom" between religious teachings, pagan proverbs, and practical advice.
The centuries long battle in the Bible between prophets and the Law of Moses, and even between the prophets and prophecy itself.
How first and second century Christians interpreted the Hebrew Bible in a new way, to change it into a book that had "really" been written about Jesus.
Jesus of Nazareth's philosophical conflicts with Jesus the son of Sirach.
The battle between James and Paul--and their followers--for control of first-century Christianity.

As Helms concludes, "Before the sacred authors were declared sacred, they were fair game for attack or revision. Not without reason did John the Relevator threaten with "plagues' anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away from the words of' his book (Rev. 22:18-19), for such was all too often the fate of the 'little books' that eventually became our Bible."

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-05-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

That's because Plato is science and has been proved. Don't you think it's kind of ridiculous to say "well, all the important parts survived". Don't you think that some self-serving bastard would have changed something important at one point?

Let me put it this way. If the God of the Bible is real he would not let those things happen because he loves mankind. He gave his son to die for every man's sins, which is the greatest love of all.

And then if God isn't real, well I haven't a thing to lose. After all there would be no purpose to life anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilzkopf

A short summary of The Bible Against Itself: Why the Bible Seems to Contradict Itself, by Randel McCraw Helms:

If you open up the Bible and read it straight through, you will notice two things that should not be true if it had been written as a coherent whole and with a single purpose. First, the Bible is quite repetitious; second, the Bible frequently seems to contradict itself. Randel Helms examines the cultural and historical factors that produce these seeming contradictions.

1. The bible repeats things to show how important it is. You know. Not only that, but you can also argue the Bible's repetitive cycle of man's sin, slavery to sin, and then salvation is one of the most important things in the Bible. When you look at any Christian's relationship with God like a marriage, you will notice that we are backstabbing God 24/7 and cheating on him. In other words, we are like prostitutes, always selling ourselves to sin.

2.The Bible contradicting itself. I have heard many of these things, but none seem to ever make sense, but I will read on.

Quote:

All books were written for or against some point of view, and the books of the Bible are no different. Bible book authors were often motivated to write because they wanted to challenge or correct those who had written before them. As Helms explains, "The Bible is a war-zone, and its authors are its combatants.

Alright, so far I see no facts and a lot of rambling. The guy is obviously trying to draw in atheists as readers, which is a good marketing scheme, but for a Christian like me, we just want to see where his facts are.

Quote:

Paul said of Peter, 'I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong (Gal. 2:11).'" Helms notes that Jeremiah condemned the entire religious establishment of his time--the very same people that other Bible authors held in highest esteem: "prophets and priests are frauds, every one of them" (Jer. 8:10).

Eureka! but I don't find this convincing. See if you read the whole chapter, which the guy did not include for obvious reasons, you will see why Paul said that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gal. 2

Paul Accepted by the Apostles
1Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[a] just as Peter had been to the Jews.[b] 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[c] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d]

See, Paul was catching Peter on his hypocrisy AT THAT MOMENT. In other words, he wasn't saying everything Peter ever said was wrong, he was saying that Peter should act like a Christian and stop telling other people to when he wasn't.

Now for the Jeremiah one the guy is using the exact same tactic. He leaves out what matters and only brings out the stuff he wants you to read. Read Jeremiah 8:

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-05-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

1 " 'At that time, declares the LORD, the bones of the kings and officials of Judah, the bones of the priests and prophets, and the bones of the people of Jerusalem will be removed from their graves. 2 They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground. 3 Wherever I banish them, all the survivors of this evil nation will prefer death to life, declares the LORD Almighty.'
Sin and Punishment
4 "Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says:
" 'When men fall down, do they not get up?
When a man turns away, does he not return?

5 Why then have these people turned away?
Why does Jerusalem always turn away?
They cling to deceit;
they refuse to return.

6 I have listened attentively,
but they do not say what is right.
No one repents of his wickedness,
saying, "What have I done?"
Each pursues his own course
like a horse charging into battle.

7 Even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons,
and the dove, the swift and the thrush
observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know
the requirements of the LORD.

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the LORD,
what kind of wisdom do they have?

10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men
and their fields to new owners.
From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.

11 They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
"Peace, peace," they say,
when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct?
No, they have no shame at all;
they do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen;
they will be brought down when they are punished,
says the LORD.

13 " 'I will take away their harvest,
declares the LORD.
There will be no grapes on the vine.
There will be no figs on the tree,
and their leaves will wither.
What I have given them
will be taken from them. [a] ' "

14 "Why are we sitting here?
Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities
and perish there!
For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish
and given us poisoned water to drink,
because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace
but no good has come,
for a time of healing
but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses
is heard from Dan;
at the neighing of their stallions
the whole land trembles.
They have come to devour
the land and everything in it,
the city and all who live there."

17 "See, I will send venomous snakes among you,
vipers that cannot be charmed,
and they will bite you,"
declares the LORD.

18 O my Comforter [b] in sorrow,
my heart is faint within me.

19 Listen to the cry of my people
from a land far away:
"Is the LORD not in Zion?
Is her King no longer there?"
"Why have they provoked me to anger with their images,
with their worthless foreign idols?"

20 "The harvest is past,
the summer has ended,
and we are not saved."

21 Since my people are crushed, I am crushed;
I mourn, and horror grips me.

22 Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why then is there no healing
for the wound of my people?

To understand this you may need a bit of background information. At the time the kingdoms of Judah and Israel were going through many "dynasty's" of kings who weren't following the Lord. That is what Jeremiah was criticizing. That was pretty much the dark ages of Israel.

Quote:

Luke felt the need to write another gospel even though "many writers have undertaken to draw up an account of these events" (Luke 1:1). Luke obviously felt that Mark's gospel was filled with errors and edited it freely. Not even Mark's account of the words of the dying Christ was left unaltered.

Luke made a gospel from his perspective. Just because he didn't like the way Mark wrote it and the things Mark included, it still doesn't mean he didn't approve of it. Each gospel is each man's perspective with what happened. Put them all together and you get the real story.

Quote:

* How the author of Chronicles I & II white-washed earlier historical accounts of Saul, David, and Solomon.
* How the book of Ruth was written to challenge the growing racism of religious reformers of its time.
* How every apocalyptic book of the Bible struggled to reinterpret some earlier failed Bible prophecy.
* The war of "Wisdom" between religious teachings, pagan proverbs, and practical advice.
* The centuries long battle in the Bible between prophets and the Law of Moses, and even between the prophets and prophecy itself.
* How first and second century Christians interpreted the Hebrew Bible in a new way, to change it into a book that had "really" been written about Jesus.
* Jesus of Nazareth's philosophical conflicts with Jesus the son of Sirach.
* The battle between James and Paul--and their followers--for control of first-century Christianity.

And here he goes again rambling without facts. Here is advice, don't mention it and if you aren't going to back it up.

Quote:

As Helms concludes, "Before the sacred authors were declared sacred, they were fair game for attack or revision. Not without reason did John the Relevator threaten with "plagues' anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away from the words of' his book (Rev. 22:18-19), for such was all too often the fate of the 'little books' that eventually became our Bible."

And how can you make that assumption. There are like 1,000,000 reasons he could have said that and you chose to pick one and think it is correct. Wow, and you didn't even tell us why.

joyboyo53 · 07-05-2007, 11:51 AM

/emote vomits all over this thread

this seems less like a discussion topic and more like a problem waiting to happen. its just my opinion but when both sides of an arguement are closeminded, doesnt it make sense to only talk about it with people who agree with you? otherwise its just gonna end up a pointless drivel of wasted breath and burnt bridges.

Pilzkopf · 07-05-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgd85

/emote vomits all over this thread

this seems less like a discussion topic and more like a problem waiting to happen. its just my opinion but when both sides of an arguement are closeminded, doesnt it make sense to only talk about it with people who agree with you? otherwise its just gonna end up a pointless drivel of wasted breath and burnt bridges.

I agree, especially since I was accused of writing that summary and choosing those parts. All I did was report what someone else had written. Now, I am curious to read that book and see what else it has to say.

anticipation · 07-05-2007, 01:02 PM

The bible is based off the teachings and parables preached by Jesus Christ. No one is suggesting that it is God's word, mainly due to the fact that almost all of it is up to an individual's interperetation. The stories and fables accounted in the Bible are moral messages intended to influence people to live a good life. What does it matter that God doesn't come down and tell you these things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHDTV

Hell was made up by the Catholic Church

and not only is this completely incorrect, it has little to do with the matter at hand. Hell is not a creation of the Catholic Church, the idea has existed for hundreds of years before Catholicism was even conceived. You're a Jew, yet you know nothing of the portrayal of "Gehenna" as a final resting place for the wicked? Previous terms for what is comomonly known today as "hell" are the Greek Hades, Buddhist Naraka, and the Islamic Jahannam. Now, are you going to tell me that all of those religions based their ideas of Hell off of the Catholic Church?

MHDTV · 07-05-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gentleman Johnny

The bible is based off the teachings and parables preached by Jesus Christ. No one is suggesting that it is God's word, mainly due to the fact that almost all of it is up to an individual's interperetation. The stories and fables accounted in the Bible are moral messages intended to influence people to live a good life. What does it matter that God doesn't come down and tell you these things?

and not only is this completely incorrect, it has little to do with the matter at hand. Hell is not a creation of the Catholic Church, the idea has existed for hundreds of years before Catholicism was even conceived. You're a Jew, yet you know nothing of the portrayal of "Gehenna" as a final resting place for the wicked? Previous terms for what is comomonly known today as "hell" are the Greek Hades, Buddhist Naraka, and the Islamic Jahannam. Now, are you going to tell me that all of those religions based their ideas of Hell off of the Catholic Church?

The Buddhists didn't belive in a final resting place fot the dead. I'm not sure about Islam, but Hades Kingdom was very different from the Christian concept of Hell. Anyway, what you said has little to do with my point, that Hell wasn't present in the Christian Religion until the Church started using it as a political tool.

sleepy jack · 07-05-2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gentleman Johnny

The bible is based off the teachings and parables preached by Jesus Christ.

Yeah I forgot about Adam, Jesus and Eve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gentleman Johnny

No one is suggesting that it is God's word, mainly due to the fact that almost all of it is up to an individual's interperetation.

Are you serious? I hear the bible is God's word all the time, just go to any church and ask what it is and they'll probably say God's word. I don't think its God's word because alot of it our stories that are in relation to him to focus on other people, but plenty of people still suggest and say it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gentleman Johnny

The stories and fables accounted in the Bible are moral messages intended to influence people to live a good life. What does it matter that God doesn't come down and tell you these things?

The entire basis of the christian religion is they were saved because jesus died for their sins and that enabled them to go to heaven, thats not just some pick me up to influence people to lead a good life or guilt them into it. A christian would have to have complete faith in that and believe its more than just a 'moral message.' Before you talk about the bible, maybe you should get your shit straight.

Frances · 07-05-2007, 07:34 PM

A Matrix reference in a bible thread? This could get deeeeep man.

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Sorry, the only thing i have to contribute to this thread is to tell you:
1) I'm not religious.
2) I've never read the Bible.
3) I don't plan to.

I'll leave now.

07-04-2007, 11:02 PM	#11 (permalink)
MHDTV Music Addict Join Date: May 2007 Location: Berkeley, California Posts: 697	That's because Plato is science and has been proved. Don't you think it's kind of ridiculous to say "well, all the important parts survived". Don't you think that some self-serving bastard would have changed something important at one point?

07-05-2007, 11:51 AM	#15 (permalink)
joyboyo53 down the rabbit hole Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: the mountain called monkey Posts: 764	/emote vomits all over this thread this seems less like a discussion topic and more like a problem waiting to happen. its just my opinion but when both sides of an arguement are closeminded, doesnt it make sense to only talk about it with people who agree with you? otherwise its just gonna end up a pointless drivel of wasted breath and burnt bridges.