The Discussion in Need of a Title (techno, house, jazz)

[joyboyo53]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Sure, I think the idea that we're generally more apathetic to older practices comes from the fact that it isn't logical to follow them anymore. For instance we don't follow old business models because the internet changed how business is done entirely. Therefor when we scoff at more traditional businesses for being out of date they think we look like savages for it. The same is apparently true for politics. The internet has completely bridged many social gaps and has left no reason for social conservatism so in general we're a less conservative generation. Again, we look less (relatively) intelligent politically to them because they have no understanding about what this generation is actually like. By the fact that they completely don't get our generation our generation is misrepresented to look rather dumb to the older generation. From what I gather when they judge us its because we're tossing out the conventions they're used to which looks foolish to them, when in actuality it would be foolish to keep said conventions.

Listen, the internet is great... but it hasnt changed the 'business model' as much as it just speed it up. People still solve problems with the same equations, they just dont do it by hand anymore. People talk about the same ****, they just do it over a telephone instead of in person. Their 'business model' is the one we based ours on. And just because the internet is here doesnt mean it bridged social gaps (I am not saying it didnt help). I think alot of it has to do with policies put into place by these OLD PEOPLE, like desegregation. The internet just improved commincation efficiency exponetially.

If I can gather anything from your arguement, it seems more as if your assaulting an older generation because for some reason you feel as though they dont understand you. I mean there will always be generation gaps but you are kinda pushing this a little hard. If anything it sounds like you suggested some newer method of doing something to your boss, and he (obviously knowing more about the subject than you) wrote you off, leaving you bitter.

Lastly, as far as politics go, it doesnt matter how old you are. Almost any time someone disagrees with someone else in politics, within a few seconds they both stop listening to anything the other person has to say and rant... have you ever seen crossfire (thank you John Stewart)?

[WaspStar]

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

I think most people in our generation are nihilists and just don't realize it yet. We live in a world of hyper-simulation where everything we do almost screams its meaninglessness at us. Our parents were probably the last generation to have the comfortable illusion of progress, and now they stare confusedly at us while we beat our heads against the wall.

Excellent point. We're more cynical and realize how phony much of our routines are. From an American point of view, the deterioration of establishments such as Social Security helps to facilitate this. No one my age I know seriously expects to be gainfully employed at one company for forty years and then comfortably retire.

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

In the 1940's American's watched as an entire race of people we're rounded up and put into internment camps.

In the 50's we segregated, schools, doctors, restaurants etc.

In the 60's we attacked American Solders returning from war.

Still far from perfect but it feels like things are moving in the right direction.

Part of the problem comes with people who want to return to the "good old days." The problem is that the "good old days" they have in mind are fictitious.

[joyboyo53]

Originally Posted by WaspStar

No one my age I know seriously expects to be gainfully employed at one company for forty years and then comfortably retire.

I do.

[Son of JayJamJah]

Originally Posted by WaspStar

Part of the problem comes with people who want to return to the "good old days." The problem is that the "good old days" they have in mind are fictitious.

Very profound point for such a young person. What do you base this on?

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by adidasss

You've heard that you don't need history and geography or that this generation is less knowledgeable in those areas?

Less knowledgeable.

So instead of looking at an atlas at school, you'll find your desired location on the web, where's the difference?

Timing.

As for social and political things, are we talking about the general degeneration of manners which is certainly true but also not connected to intelligence, or political awareness, which I'd have to say is probably a lot greater than 30-40 years ago?

Both, but I wouldn't say manners are degenerating. I'd say they're changing. I wouldn't say last generation is less aware, but this is also harder to gauge and I'll touch on that in a bit.

What? Where are you getting this? How can anyone look dumber for having progressive ideas? They may look scornfully at those changed ideals, but I really don't see how they could find you intellectually inferior.

Every liberal looks dumb to a conservative and every conservative looks dumb to a liberal. Its more of a perceptive dumbness than anything. Its easy for anyone to dismiss someone as less intelligent when they're given the same information and come to the opposite conclusion you've came to with it. It also doesn't help when we have Ann Coulters and Michael Moores making both sides look bat **** insane.

Again, that doesn't really translate into intelligence, if it's obvious that these "drastically different" ways of doing business are working.

Originally Posted by jgd85

Listen, the internet is great... but it hasnt changed the 'business model' as much as it just speed it up. People still solve problems with the same equations, they just dont do it by hand anymore. People talk about the same ****, they just do it over a telephone instead of in person. Their 'business model' is the one we based ours on.

This could be argued back to the bartering days of old. The fact is it is drastically different. Computers cut out a lot of middle men, make it easier to invest less in advertising while also making it tempting to invest more, makes networking easier, makes global commerce almost requisite if you intend to make it big (and in that sense redefines big), and shifts lots of jobs. I would agree that mom & pop stores stay pretty much the same, but anything on a larger scale is drastically different.

And just because the internet is here doesnt mean it bridged social gaps (I am not saying it didnt help). I think alot of it has to do with policies put into place by these OLD PEOPLE, like desegregation.

But it has bridged a lot of gaps. The internet has created the most socially open collective in probably the history of the world. That alone is one of the biggest steps of social progression in history. All the conventional social structures have been tossed out the window and all is well. The internet has a certain aloofness and whimsy to it that I'm not even quite sure I fully understand but it is telling of something I've probably yet to fully understand. Its like San Francisco but crazier.

Also is forced desegregation really a good thing? Shouldn't it be up to the property owner to decide who they service and for what reasons?

[WaspStar]

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Very profound point for such a young person. What do you base this on?

Again, from an American perspective, there are all these flag-waving people who chant inane slogans (mantras?) and keep talking about we have to "restore America to its former glory" and all that jazz. The problem is that they can never target a specific time, because it doesn't exist. Circa 1776? Sorry, women and blacks (and other groups) were basically non-citizens. Post Civil War? Nope, blacks are still (at best) third class citizens and women still don't have the right to vote (and Native Americans are still looked at as savages). 1964? Well, Vietnam's right around the corner, there are still minorities and groups that are directly or indirectly prosecuted (***s, you had to be 21 to vote, women still hadn't wholly embraced the whole "feminist" movement), and besides, most "patriots" seem to hate the 60's because (gasp!) people smoked pot and had sex.

I guess, in a nutshell, there's no one time that's really worth returning to. Sure, some things may have been better fifty years ago (families tended to be somewhat closer, crime wasn't as widespread, or at least not as publicized), but is that worth turning back decades of social reform and civil rights legislation? It may have been safer to walk the streets in the 1940's, but you know, back then you could kill an African-American in some states and not worry about serving time...

...and I'm certainly not one of those people who thinks that everything is rosy and fine as it is. There are plenty of problems with society (corporations, a government obsessed with Iraq, and even though domestic workers are protected, our companies exploit overseas workers, including children, to produce lower prices), but I don't think turning back the clock (whatever that means; how would that be done exactly?) is any solution.

Originally Posted by The Unfan

The internet has created the most socially open collective in probably the history of the world. That alone is one of the biggest steps of social progression in history. All the conventional social structures have been tossed out the window and all is well. The internet has a certain aloofness and whimsy to it that I'm not even quite sure I fully understand but it is telling of something I've probably yet to fully understand.

I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about the Internet. I love the easily accessibility of information and the fact that many elitist barriers have been removed (does anyone really believe that traditional manners are natural? Hell no; they're a way of putting people in their place), but the Internet tends to dehumanize people and reduces conversation to a few hackneyed abbreviations. As a tool for sharing knowledge and insights it's invaluable, but as a means to social interaction...it's somewhat lacking.

[joyboyo53]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

This could be argued back to the bartering days of old. The fact is it is drastically different. Computers cut out a lot of middle men, make it easier to invest less in advertising while also making it tempting to invest more, makes networking easier, makes global commerce almost requisite if you intend to make it big (and in that sense redefines big), and shifts lots of jobs. I would agree that mom & pop stores stay pretty much the same, but anything on a larger scale is drastically different.

No the bartering days of old would have been different, because they didnt have ideas like investment, advertising, global commerce. But all of these things you mentioned occured BEFORE the invention of the internet, so all we really did was improve on what was already there. Your idea is not cohesive and all around the place. Of course it makes networking easier, of course it moved jobs around. So did the telephone, so did the train, so did the invention of industry scale operations... all before the internet. Dont get me wrong I am not saying the internet didnt do anything new, all I am saying is that every generation has some technology put forth to them that the previous one didnt have and they take the old ideas and just polish em off into newer and better ones. Thats life. You keep thinking for some reason that because you lived during this time that its the most special and different, its not. People use to get in fist fights over girls in 500 AD and people still do it today. For as much as we are different, we are all very alike.

Originally Posted by The Unfan

But it has bridged a lot of gaps. The internet has created the most socially open collective in probably the history of the world. That alone is one of the biggest steps of social progression in history. All the conventional social structures have been tossed out the window and all is well. The internet has a certain aloofness and whimsy to it that I'm not even quite sure I fully understand but it is telling of something I've probably yet to fully understand. Its like San Francisco but crazier.

I think more people from different nations talking to eachother on some online collective as you call it is pale in comparison to realizing that slavery was wrong. That was a MUCH bigger step in "social progression". Giving women equal voting rights and a place in the work force is just another example of a MUCH bigger step in "social progression". Not to say that the internet hasnt done any good, I think it is most definetly a step in the right direction (even if telecommunications companies want to rob you of your freedom). I also agree that it is something crazy, unexplainable, and does change everything is a profound way. I think you are caught up in the awe of it and are kinda blowing it out of perportion. You act as if before the invention of the internet man was a primate.

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Also is forced desegregation really a good thing? Shouldn't it be up to the property owner to decide who they service and for what reasons?

Ya, it is. However I am also a firm believer in the constitution. Which guaruantees that all men were created equally and further guaruantees a man liberty (a souls right to live freely). Now I am in total agreement with you that an owner of an establishment should be able to decide who he serves to and why, but if that goes so far to refuse an EQUAL man entry into his establisment and infringes upon their liberty (the right for a soul to be free), then it is WRONG. I would hope to god your not dumb enough to see whats wrong with that.

Sounds like the internet did wonders for you "breaking down social barriers".

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by jgd85

Words about business

But bartering is where the concept of fiscal value even comes from. Therefore all the developments over history wouldn't have happened without it. I'm not saying we're not derivative, I'm saying we're doing it better because of all the progress we've made. If group A does something better than group B isn't it just outright nonsense for group B to tell group A they're doing it wrong?

Words about progression.

I would agree that those are huge steps, but I also wasn't comparing the internet to those. These men are made of straw.

Words about believing in the constitution.

The constitution of The United States Of America does not suggest that all men are created equally. The constitution of Maryland suggests it, which was written before the constitution of the US, however has no bearing on the constitution of the U.S. The phrase can also be found in The Declaration Of Independence. For believing in the constitution you sure do a great job of not knowing what its contents are.

Words about equality and establishments.

Apparently I'm dumb.I will draw a parallel to see if it helps. If you own a house the government can't say who you can and can't allow in based on whatever principals you so choose. You own said home, that is your property to do whatever legal things you want with. Why should this not apply to businesses? If I have the right to disallow blacks into my house why shouldn't I have the right to disallow black people to utilize my service? Likewise if it is up to me if people can smoke in my house or not why shouldn't it also be true for my business?

I'd agree that this is different when it comes to the government. The government has treat us all equally and fairly. However, a privately owned business is not owned by the government.

Can I get a thread split as there are two different conversations going on?

[joyboyo53]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

The constitution of The United States Of America does not suggest that all men are created equally. The constitution of Maryland suggests it, which was written before the constitution of the US, however has no bearing on the constitution of the U.S. The phrase can also be found in The Declaration Of Independence. For believing in the constitution you sure do a great job of not knowing what its contents are.

I meant to say the Declaration Of Independence but my bad, I was bantering high. However the following is from the Constitution of the United States and DOES imply that all men were created equally by giving blacks the right to vote.

Amendment XV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Originally Posted by The Unfan

But bartering is where the concept of fiscal value even comes from. Therefore all the developments over history wouldn't have happened without it. I'm not saying we're not derivative, I'm saying we're doing it better because of all the progress we've made. If group A does something better than group B isn't it just outright nonsense for group B to tell group A they're doing it wrong?

You said "For instance we don't follow old business models because the internet changed how business is done entirely". Just because you improve on something doesn't make it wrong, and doesn't change it entirely.

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Apparently I'm dumb.I will draw a parallel to see if it helps. If you own a house the government can't say who you can and can't allow in based on whatever principals you so choose. You own said home, that is your property to do whatever legal things you want with. Why should this not apply to businesses? If I have the right to disallow blacks into my house why shouldn't I have the right to disallow black people to utilize my service? Likewise if it is up to me if people can smoke in my house or not why shouldn't it also be true for my business?

Because business is government regulated, even private business.

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Now if you have a illegal private business, as in not government regulated, thats a different story. But you cannot own and operate a business without a license, even a private one. Another perfect example would be how city governments make it illegal to smoke in bars.

[Son of JayJamJah]

Originally Posted by jgd85

I was bantering high.

Is there any other correct way to banter.

There is little doubt the prospect of American Independence is based on anything but indiscriminate equality. Especially post emmancipation proclamation.


The real solution to this argument and the question as a whole is to find a common ground and work towards it. Not debate semantics. That makes us wittier and sharper perhaps, but not better or happier.