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Predator 10-20-2008 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan (Post 533344)
I highly doubt that. Similarity in belief is not the same thing as presence of the other belief. Liberals aren't Marxists, but Marxism borrows heavily from liberalism and can even be classified as the extreme end there of. Honestly, I think you're going up the wrong end of a slippery slope.

I think you're in love with the slippery slope.

Fruitonica 10-21-2008 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword (Post 533322)
The funny thing is, the Marxism present in liberals' minds is true, whether they want to recognize it or not. If there was a liberapedia it would be just as bad.

Perhaps, but in both cases the sites would have been established by self righteous and dangerously certain individuals who simply wish to insulate themselves from conflicting opinion. The whole concept of creating an encyclopedia with an obvious bias is moronic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword (Post 533452)
It is. It doesn't allow man to consider himself as a rational being. If man does not consider himself as a rational being then he doesn't care about his survival or his life. Man has no care of life itself if this is the case and altruism becomes contradictory.

What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. Altruism doesn't preclude a man to value his survival, it's entirely possible to concern yourself with both your own life and others. I certainly try to give to others, sometimes at the expense of my own wishes (altruism), but I am still a rational human being.

You seem to be advocating greed and a self-centered approach to life which you try to justify to yourself by calling altruism evil.

The Unfan 10-21-2008 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator (Post 533463)
I think you're in love with the slippery slope.

Its certainly a lot smoother than other slopes.

The Monkey 10-21-2008 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAPTAIN CAVEMAN (Post 533340)
yet you failed to include



which was right under your quote.

But it's implying that the flood stuff is a possibility.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan (Post 533344)
I highly doubt that. Similarity in belief is not the same thing as presence of the other belief. Liberals aren't Marxists, but Marxism borrows heavily from liberalism and can even be classified as the extreme end there of. Honestly, I think you're going up the wrong end of a slippery slope.

What are you talking about? Marxism developed as an attack on liberalism, or rather its economic doctrine, capitalism. They are fundamentally opposed. It is true that certain parts of the liberal movement was influenced by socialist ideas and developed into social liberalism, particularly in John Stuart Mill's doctrine. But Marx's ideas about the proletariat's complete control over the means of production, among other things, goes against the basic philosophies of liberalism.

The Unfan 10-21-2008 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey (Post 533620)
But it's implying that the flood stuff is a possibility.

What are you talking about? Marxism developed as an attack on liberalism, or rather its economic doctrine, capitalism. They are fundamentally opposed. It is true that certain parts of the liberal movement was influenced by socialist ideas and developed into social liberalism, particularly in John Stuart Mill's doctrine. But Marx's ideas about the proletariat's complete control over the means of production, among other things, goes against the basic philosophies of liberalism.

Are you definining liberalism strictly as classical liberalism?

The Monkey 10-21-2008 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan (Post 533676)
Are you definining liberalism strictly as classical liberalism?

No, but you said that "Marxism borrows heavily from liberalism", which means that Marx in the mid 19th century borrowed from contemporary liberalism, what we now call classical liberalism, which is outright false.

The only thing liberalism and Marxism have in common is that they're both children of the Enlightenment, but socialism or ideas similar to it had existed long before Marx came along.

The Unfan 10-21-2008 02:57 PM

Marxism has very similar ideas to liberalism, at least theoretically. Especially in regards to culture. They both want to grant the people as many freedoms as possible with as little government interaction as possible. Both classical liberalism and marxism make the assumption that the people know what is best for their own persons. The key difference is that liberalism embraces the class divide where Marx assumed it was the cause of a lot of problems.

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN 10-21-2008 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey (Post 533620)
But it's implying that the flood stuff is a possibility.

of course it's a possiblity. what the fuck do you know about any of that sort of stuff?

The Monkey 10-21-2008 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan (Post 533703)
Marxism has very similar ideas to liberalism, at least theoretically. Especially in regards to culture. They both want to grant the people as many freedoms as possible with as little government interaction as possible. Both classical liberalism and marxism make the assumption that the people know what is best for their own persons. The key difference is that liberalism embraces the class divide where Marx assumed it was the cause of a lot of problems.

Well, the Marxists assume that the proletariat all have common needs and wants. There isn't an individual perspective on the personal needs of the single worker (or farmer). They rather lump them all together and claim to know what each and everyone of them wants. You're right though that both Marxism and liberalism assume than man is at heart good.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CAPTAIN CAVEMAN (Post 533755)
of course it's a possiblity. what the fuck do you know about any of that sort of stuff?

How is a possibility? It's not supported by factual evidence. Just because it's written down in some fictional story in an old book doesn't put it on the same level as scientific theories.

Inuzuka Skysword 10-21-2008 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fruitonica (Post 533537)
Perhaps, but in both cases the sites would have been established by self righteous and dangerously certain individuals who simply wish to insulate themselves from conflicting opinion. The whole concept of creating an encyclopedia with an obvious bias is moronic.

Oh I totally agree. I just wanted to make sure that everyone didn't just bash on conservatives as if they are the only absolute evil.

Quote:

What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. Altruism doesn't preclude a man to value his survival, it's entirely possible to concern yourself with both your own life and others. I certainly try to give to others, sometimes at the expense of my own wishes (altruism), but I am still a rational human being.
Altruism specifically calls for putting another's interests above your own. If this is the case, then you put another's life before your own. If you put another life before your own, you do not care about your own survival because your own life is not your highest value.

Giving to others isn't necessarily altruism. You can give to others in your own rational self interest. It is just that you must never give more than you will receive. Otherwise you are irrational.

Quote:

You seem to be advocating greed and a self-centered approach to life which you try to justify to yourself by calling altruism evil.
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged 35th anniversary edition

Now I do not follow this philosophy because I am irrational and chose religion (Christianity,) but this philosophy is the most logical philosophy out there.

Quote:

Quite right because the other extreme, selfishness is a much better virtue to build a country on.
Rational self-interest.


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