Yes. Meat is not murder, but in most cases it is cruelty and even torture.

What did it show, in general?

i have no issues eating meat. it is pretty damn tasty...and, as mentioned above, we are omnivores...so basically it is our nature. i'm not into hunting in any way, but my brother had an interesting idea about hunting our food just once, to really get an appreciation of what is going on when we eat meat. we are so shut off and sheltered from the process of where our food comes from that we don't realize it really does mean a living thing has to die.

but yeah fast food in the US is disgusting. i was basically on a fish diet while i was in asia, and i never felt healthier....then i got back here and dropped a whopper bomb on my stomach. the bathroom was my home for the next few hours.

The animals in their pens, the beak removal of chickens, and lots of exsanguination.
The video looked old and may have been outdated, but it was still pretty bad.

Was it just in one factory?

I don't remember tbh.

Just wondering. I know it's pretty standard for the meat industry to be brutal in most respects... but I would expect an organization who's against the entire concept to only show the worst of the bunch.

This is the best answer I've seen here. I have not eaten meat for almost 20 years because I have always lived in a society that uses torture and cruelty in their animal farming practices. That, and I don't need it for nutrition no matter what type of fucking teeth I have.
On the other hand, if I had to eat meat to live (like if the world was post-apocalyptic or something), of course I would kill and eat animals. Until then I don't have a reason to eat meat - only reasons not to.

So you just don't want to fund the practice of animal farming/manufacturing? That's the reason?

I know you know that you're not making a difference and never will. Also, I respect matters of principle, but if there's another cause, I'm interested in hearing it.
Just because there are other protein sources usually isn't a sole negotiator in matters that involve rejecting your omnivorous nature.

As the definition of murder is unlawful killing. I'd have to say no it isn't at all.

So does this mean if you kill someone out in the middle of nowhere in Antarctica it's not murder?

I'm just going by what the definition of it is.

I'm just trying to plan my summer.

Haha - glad to hear it. Yea, I'm not even sure what making a difference means. I have always lived in a semi-depraved society rife with cruelty and probably always will. I'm fine with that.

As for my reasons - it's really just a combo of the two you picked up. 1) I don't want to fund meat manufacuring as a matter of principle (and I do eat eggs and milk so I don't even fully refrain from funding animal farming) and 2) Another feature of my (our) society is that I have access to whatever food I want from just about anywhere in the world. So I can have plenty of other protein sources. Also, I dislike meat more than a lot of them.
I don't see how I'm rejecting my omnivorous nature. That means I have the natural capability to live without meat.

Consider the following:

A human born severely retarded - that would, without sustained care by other humans, be nowhere close to functioning well enough to reach reproductive age - is granted the rights to live, be free of torture, etc.

An animal with all their cognitive faculties intact that would in another environment (i.e., not an industrial farm) live a (comparatively) long life is denied not only the right to live, but is made to exist in despondently poor conditions that definitely amount to torture. This applies to the majority of animals that become/produce the meat, eggs, etc., that we consume.

So, why does the deficient human get to live over the capable animal? Because he/she was born into our species? Does that justify giving them the lifelong right to exist, while the animal is born without any chance at having a life that doesn't end in being consumed by a human?

To answer the first post: I am not a vegetarian. I do believe that it is completey natural for human beings to eat meat.

Understandable.
:)

Eating meat creates the demand for meat that is responsible for the slaughter of millions of animals. Without the demand there is no reason to kill the animals--so in eating meat you are a necessary part of the equation resulting in the deaths of these animals and the success of the meat industry. That is just a fact. Now whether or not one has a problem with this scenario is a different question--if you have a moral opposition to killing in general then I think ideological consistency necessitates that you be vegetarian. It is also true that meat-eating is ingrained in our culture and in me as well--I am not a vegetarian--and I am being inconsistent ideologically. For my part I try to eat meat infrequently--much more infrequently, recently, than I did in the past. I'll still devour a nice ribeye though, oh well.

I think it's more a matter of survival that has escalated into something far more in the face of demand and efficiency. Realistically, we could all still live our lives hunting on our own terms, or even choosing to eat vegetables... but mass farming and manufacturing applies to both meat and fruit/vegetables and it's undeniably necessary in context with our nation's needs. The entire nation (whichever you belong to) can't support itself independently because we'd all be spilling over into eachother's land and decimating any animal/crop population that found itself in our sights.
While not agreeable of the state in which we employ animal farming, it's rather unrealistic to think that we could just replace meat farming with vegetable farming and live happily ever after.
The push for change needs to happen with the methods at which we farm meat and the treatment we give in those scenarios.

I just don't think we should all give up meat as a society and start living on vegetables just because we don't think it's "nice" to be on the top of a food chain. Yea, maybe we could lessen the extent of our influence, but just moving aside is only going to give the position to something else.

Tell that to every meat-eating animal that lives in the wild.
I don't think you'll get them to change their habits, and even if you could, I don't think they should. Nature made it this way, this is the way it should be. But we definitely have to be careful of taking it too far. And we are taking it too far. But that's what we have to change...
We don't have to stop being who we are all together. We just have to tone down the whole mass market thing.



Edit:
Which I now realize is basically what you just said.

;)

The difference between humans and all other meat eating animals is that we have developed morality and the idea that all life is intrinsically valuable. That notion does not exist in the natural/animal world and it is obvious absurdity that 'animals' would adhere to it. Because of our intelligence, humans should be held to a higher standard.

So just because we were intelligent enough to fabricate a basic human standard and all the other animals weren't, we should deny our same basic needs just because we can?

That doesn't make much sense to me in the grand scheme of things.

If life was truly and objectively valuable, then our 'lesser' animals wouldn't be eating meat either, by virtue of whatever higher force deemed us all valuable to begin with.

Well, yes. Humans do not need to eat meat to survive--millions of living vegans attest to that. And the primary human motivation for eating meat is not need--in most cases it is convenience and pleasure. Our basic needs are not the same as all other animals. Humans have the ability to farm, to store and preserve food. These are luxuries that other animals--who do need to eat meet--do not have. And that moral standards were "fabricated" by humans does not mean they are superfluous or not worth adhering to. Why should we act morally at all if there is personal gain in acting immorally?

I don't understand this point, perhaps you could clarify? As for life being 'objectively' valuable: all living things wish to sustain themselves and to be free of suffering. Because I, as a human, am intelligent enough to understand that it should also therefore be my duty to respect it.

I pretty much agree with this. I was playing devil's advocate with my previous one.

Ultimately I doubt that I will ever change my meat-eating behaviour. Ideally humans would either have a more natural system of farming and/or hunt. That won't happen because there are too many people, which is a problem all in itself.

For most animals the reproductive act is essentially rape. Clearly we shouldn't act the way we do just because they do as well.

I don't believe in not eating meat. Heaps of other carnivorous and omnivorous animals kill other animals for meat and I have no real problem with this - it is all a part of life, nature, and the food chain.

What I do have a problem with is the way us humans farm our meat. Most of the time it is very cruel, inhumane, and unfriendly towards the environment. Many animals are kept in horrifying conditions and endure years of torture. I buy organic meat - not only does it taste better but it is farmed in a natural environment. I actually lived in country Australia for a while and was very pleased at the state of many of our meat farms - the animals were kept in beautiful outdoor paddocks and had loads of room and freedom and green grass to eat. I wish other farmers around the world would be less money hungry and more caring towards our environment and the other inhabitants of it.

I also only ever eat local produce because it means less transportation and less petrol being used, etcetera. It's always a little dearer to buy organic and local produce but it doesn't really bother me.

Personally, I don't eat a lot of meat (unless it is organic) due to the treatment of animals in the meat industry and also the implications on the environment (farming meat often means using a lot of water and other resources). And also because I'm not really a meat person. But I have nothing against eating meat and if a person loves eating meat I don't see anything wrong with it. I just think in many parts of the world the way in which meat is harvested is very cruel and should be rethought.

Also, saying that we should or shouldn't do something because that's what "other meat-eating animals do" is silly. We are humans, and we have the intelligence and the resources to look after our fellow species and ensure that they don't suffer nor have a low quality of life - since we are able to do this, we should think about the way we treat other species because we have the intelligence to. If you get what I mean... kind-of hard to explain!

It's like people who say, "Why help that beached whale? It's just an act of nature." We should help it because we can.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to an extent. I just mean that you're going to be farming whatever you eat if you're not relying on industry. And with the amount of people we have in this world, at this present time, with this present state of being... not many would be able to survive on their own if all the sudden meat and vegetables were no longer hand-packaged for them in grocery stores, grown on mass farms, and sold to the consumer.
Where do you honestly think you'll be able to obtain a means to survive if you couldn't buy it, or at least obtain a means to produce your own? I'm sure you'd trespass many times on someone else's property before you even got close.

The thing is, we're currently at a point where someone owns everything and when it comes down to survival, we really have no other choice but to be slaves to a market. Yea, you can personally decide to not eat meat from that market, but you're ultimately still serving the market with your choice regardless. And the market is what drives both what you stand for and what you stand against. So it's almost a catch-22.
And there's nothing you can do about that.
So in our reality, the human-being one, we're still just as restricted as an animal's environment (individually) because there's not much we can do about our situation except do what allows us to survive.
That's what it comes down to.

I agree that we could better use our talents and strengths to provide for ourselves in more humane way, but I personally don't believe that just because we're capable of feeling sorry for something that we should be ruled by those emotions alone.
The only thing that matters is the matter of survival. And to do that, we must intelligently do things in a way that benefits both us and our environment and the things living in it. Simply expecting the entire world to stop eating meat altogether is only going to shift the extreme from one end to the other, regardless of what it is.

Touche'.

But we still have to reproduce.

the act of reproduction is far older than the idea of rape.

but more to the point, humans evolved as omnivores. i doubt a single homo habilis ever passed up a juicy slab of fire-roasted auroch while citing some whimsical complaint about the righteousness of not eating meat.

who are we to pass judgment upon the world as it existed long before we came along?

I'll murder a cow or a chicken in a heart beat, cut a chunk right off the side, and throw it on the barbecue

My point, as others have said, is that whether or not you decide to be a vegetarian should be a strictly personal decision. It's a matter of taste and principle. You shouldn't force your tastes or principles upon others, and some vegetarians do that. I haven't seen anyone of that persuasion here, and i'm glad.
If I were ever to turn into a vegetarian, it'd be strictly because of the guilt. If i stop eating meat it won't mean that the meat industry is going to cease animal cruelty, but at least I won't be a part of that. Human beings have always eaten meat, and I see no harm in doing so, but genetic manipulation of chicken, for example, bothers me quite a bit. And there are already chicken who are born without any feathers.
I'm sure animals wouldn't have such compassion if they were hungry and we were at the bottom of the food chain, though, we can tell ourselves that if we wish some comfort, but they really couldn't manipulate us genetically and turn our lives into a pointless hell, they don't have that much of an unfair advantage.
To sum this mess up: I really wouldn't mind eating meat at all if I thought the whole meat farming process wasn't so "unfair". A matter of honour? Perhaps. We are animals, animals eat each other, it's the way of life. If you choose not to, that's fine.

http://www.thenibble.com/zine/archiv...basket_000.jpg

OM NOM NOM

I don't think animals are equal to people, and when people compare slaughtering pigs to the holocaust it's pretty sickening.

I don't even like people in general, all this talk about "living up to some high standards" is f*cking bullsh*t and vegetarianism is just another bullsh*t reason to make us feel more important than we are.

I'm not a total nihilist, I like being alive, I value the lives of those most close to me, I believe that decent people exist and they justify the existance of life as a whole, but other than that most people can suck it, and I love meat. Yes I believe our environment should be taken more seriously, that there's some sacrifices we could all make and that kids deserve a better future and all that. And yes a lot of the farming practices are not only sadistic but they have their health risks too, steroids are a big issue, something should be done about stuff like that.

But I'm not giving up something (that isn't a moral issue to me because I could care less about f*cking cows) I really enjoy just because a bunch of hippie f*cks who like shoving their morals down my throat will feel better about themselves, I think humans will always have certain animalistic characteristics at least until we evolve into giant brains and I guess you're all trying to speed up that evolution process but it's like the same reasons I made that thread about heaven, I don't want a utopia, I don't want to be a giant brain, and I don't understand why anyone would.

I'm not shoving my morals down your throat

I don't even know you.

I was responding to Bungalowbill.

I'm all for eating meat, but I agree that some of the meat industry out there is pretty darn awful. Here the standards are good, I think. It's not a very capitalistic country and we're not part of the EU, and animals don't suffer under the dollar or euro as they might do elsewhere.

Some points I don't think anyone else have made so far,

Most domestic animals today like chickens and cattle have been bred for thousands of years, just like dogs. Generally speaking, most of them don't have a place in nature anymore and wouldn't necessarily do very well if we put them back out there. They survive under our protection in our cultured landscapes where there's little predation. It's not universally true, some breeds of sheep do quite well in natural environments for example, but it's certainly valid to the argument. For some of them, if we had no interest in their meat/eggs/feathers/fur or whatever, they wouldn't be around. We made them.

A point about morality is that we need it for us just as much as we need it for the animals. When someone says they don't like the idea of animals suffering, I assume they don't like the idea of people suffering either. That morality is a byproduct of our compassion for eachother and happens when people identify with animals. Still, I think many meat eaters are ignorant of what the lives of industry cattle, pigs, chickens and so on are like. I'm sure that if they really found out - visited an abbatoir or something similar, they'd break down in tears.

I actually think that one reason why vegetarianism is gaining popularity is that people are so far removed from nature these days. People used to gut their own fish, boil their own crabs, slaughter their own pigs. People learned to treat animals more like things. Nowadays, some people hardly ever see animals unless they are pets. Obviously they don't learn how to use them. If anything, they learn to relate to them more as if they were people whose shapes and cognitive abilities are different from ours.

Obviously, farmers, fishers, people working in abbatoirs and so on - they still see and treat animals as things. The conflict has a basic root in the perception of animals.

I have one friend who was raised a vegetarian, and a few that just recently decided to become vegetarian/vegan. I assume because it's the 'cool' thing to do. Even though I've found I do prefer veggie bacon to real bacon, I'm a pretty big fan of meat. I think this about sums it up for me:

Agreed to a point. It goes along with all the kids these days thinking they are *** at 13 so they have something to defend in an otherwise boring ass life.

my cousin is vegetarian. one day she was going off about animal rights. i pointed out the fact that she was wearing leather shoes. that shut her up pretty quick.

...

Errrrrrrrrrrr

i think you're absolutely spot on with what i bolded. the modern disconnection with where food comes from is becoming incredibly sad. like the letter sent to a newspaper about how barbaric hunters were and how they should leave the animals in peace and just get their meat from the grocery store like civilized people.:confused:

although i don't think the idea that people desensitized themselves to seeing animals as 'things' is quite accurate as well. the emotional connection that a pet would have wouldn't be there but most sensible people could see the animal as a necessary living sacrifice. while large scale commercial slaughterhouses might be cold and mechanical the average farmer most definitely gives a crap about their livestock even if they know it's their last season. they don't want to harvest an unhealthy / dying animal as that wouldn't translate to a healthy family.

as for meat = murder... do i really need canine teeth to eat nothing but beans and sprouts?