Yes, I think you're right...the lion in Madagascar ended up eating sushi to survive. In the movie, eating fish was not considered an ethical issue, and that isn't fair to fish. I think the movie reflects that many people don't feel concern about fish experiencing pain and stress when they are caught, torn, and suffocating.

How people decide which animals, if any, they feel are okay to kill is a great question I wish more people would consider, and RVCA does that here:

I think what you see as wishy-washyness of vegetarians is actually their thoughtfulness about where we draw the line between whom we do or don't eat.

I feel most meat-eaters are very arbitrary (wishy-washy) in making decisions about whom to eat. Most meat-eaters don't seem to even develop a rational reason for the line they draw. They will concoct some excuse to feel good about eating pigs but bad about eating dogs, even though dogs and pigs have very similar intelligence levels, playfulness, and other attributes (including tastiness).

For example, consider your reason for valuing human lives the most. I have never read any modern science study proving that only humans think about thinking. Also, I'd be very surprised if babies and young children think about thinking. So it isn't even clear that people always think about thinking. And why should the ability to think about thinking be more important than an animal's ability to love, feel friendship, feel playfulness and pleasure?

You wrote that you feel insects, "on a psychologically evolutionary scale," are "on the same playing field as the aforementioned meats" (cows, pigs, chickens), but I don't agree with that at all.

I see humans and other animals as often being on a continuum according to mental abilities, rather than there being sharp divides between species. If an animal appears to have a greater mental capacity to enjoy and appreciate being alive, then I feel a stronger need to avoid killing that animal. A pig has a much more developed emotional life and intellectual interaction with its environment than an invertebrate like an ant does, so I feel more concern about the pig's life than the ant's life.

But I try to give animals the benefit of the doubt. If I know the animal has a brain, I know it is thinking or experiencing *something* and so I try to avoid killing it, even if it is an invertebrate animal whose life I value much less than the life of a pig because the pig is so much more mentally aware and capable. I rarely go out of my way to kill creepy-crawlies. Even as a little child I'd rescue worms from sidewalks so they wouldn't get stepped on.

If, to save time for myself, I vacuum up a spider rather than do catch-and-release, I feel bad about that because I know I'm valuing a minute of my time more than that spider's little life. And yes, the spider's life may be little, and the spider may be only dimly aware of the experience of life, but it is still probably aware so I feel selfish to have killed it.

So, how *do* you decide the value of someone else's life? I feel it is best to try to figure out what the life experience is like for that being, and then make ethical decisions about how to treat that animal from there. Simply saying "only humans matter" isn't a convincing argument to me, because it ignores or trivializes the ability of many other animals to have a wide range or emotions and thoughts.

When I know that animals have strong emotional attachments to their family and friends, and they like to play, and they enjoy basking in the sun...I don't want to end that for an animal.

Good point. Why should the biggest ego get to eat the lesser egos? Ooo, I can do calculus, so I'll have a steak.

I think I love you. http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/r...999/drinks.gif

Why stop there?

People who can't do calculus are obviously leading worthless, simplistic, shallow lives, so they might as well be food for those of us who can. Since they possess less than optimal levels of those quintessential human traits of voracious curiosity and the ability to want to think beyond the obvious, what value can their simple lives have?? Not much. So...snack time!

;)

I noticed that you, too, have a soft spot for critters :love:...and not just in the pit of your stomach! :D

I've always liked earthworms, skaltezon. I think they're cute. I like to crouch and watch how they react, such as when they stretch out their little front ends until they are skinny and pointy, and then squinch up quickly if you touch them.

It turns out that some worms have fairly interesting neuronal systems that scientists feel make them capable of "free will," the ability to make choices. This is yet another example of how the differences between humans and other animals are often not qualitative but quantitative.

And sometimes the differences are simply qualitative. I will never feel the wind rushing through my feathers, for example. A bird will have many experiences and choices that I can never have.

So, when people eat other animals, I often feel as if people are viewing their own abilities and capabliities as more worthwhile than those of their "food" animals. Maybe beings lacking humility ought to be eaten first...starting with the ones who can't do calculus. ;)

Now for exciting info on worm neuron structures, read on to learn about the human-like brain found in a type of worm!

Basically, since we are atop the food chain, we should use that to our advantage. We CAN eat these animals that are tasty and nutritious so why not? I think some people think about animals feelings and thoughts a little too much. Animals in the wild survive strictly off of killing and eating other animals. Sometimes I feel like others view animals almost on a higher level than actual people.

Where do you draw the line when it comes to taking advantage of our planet though? There is inevitably a point where we can take so much from it that it can no longer function, and following, neither can we.

I don't know, every situation is different, but I don't draw the line at eating animals. We are powerful enough and able to eat them.... If animals could somehow round us up and eat us for their own benefit, then they probably would.

But you're probably not in support of packs of wolves who round up and attack people, hahaha. I'm not trying to nitpick, I just think it's a good alternative example in the line of your logic. Pretty much, if they can attack us, they deserve to.

And if one human can kill and eat another, why not? We humans aren't all created equal, after all. So why have any concern for anyone...especially those weaker than you? Might makes right. (Just playing devil's advocate.)

I don't place non-human animals at the same level as humans in all mental abilities, but in certain abilities they are more capable than we are, and we are more capable in many others.

For example, if you were a dog, you and I probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But also my butt would be a bouquet of delightful scents to you! If we ranked beings according to ability to smell, or see, or take delight in something, we humans might not rank at the top.

I can't help but notice that humans usually value the traits in which they excel compared to many other animals (such as math and language ability). Coincidence? Or mere self-centeredness?

.. .. .. .. http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/r...e_999/rofl.gif

Good read. http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/r...e_999/good.gif

I know you are playing devils advocate but I see way too many arguments using examples of hypothetical situations and just going down the slippery slope of things... Yes, if I were a dog, I'd probably sniff your ass, but I AM NOT A DOG SO WHO CARES. And of course I don't support wolves attacking and killing people. I hope if they attack, someone has a gun and kills them.

I'm not a vegetarian. I eat meat. I just think that the animals that are feeding me deserve more respect.

Well, then you're a hypocrite, since your entire argument is "We should because we can". There are a lot of things people can do, to the environment, and to one another, that they shouldn't, and I'm sure you wouldn't argue against a lot of them.

*sigh* Again, I am not talking about doing harmful things to the environemt... or hurting other people... I AM TALKING ABOUT EATING ANIMALS. It would be silly to not use us being at the top of the food chain to our advantage. Saying I am a hypocrite because I want to eat animals, and also don't want my family attacked by a pack of wolves is stupid.

The point I was trying to make about how life would change if you were a dog was this:

If you were a dog, your experience of life would still have value to YOU. No, you couldn't type out your ideas, but you would be surrounded by wonderful, interesting smells that we humans are incapable of appreciating as much as you could if you were a dog. Your reality as a dog would be different than your reality experienced as a human, but not of less VALUE. In other words, you do not have to understand something (such as life) intellectually in order to appreciate it.

But since you don't like hypotheticals, here is some reality for you.

This first video of a pig farm in Spain explains several reasons I feel eating meat is ethically murder. Raising animals to kill them involves people not just killing animals, but also often depriving them of their sanity and chance for freedom of choice, mental stimulation, and a normal family life. The final scene shows how people bludgeon or "thump" piglets to death...a completely legal and common practice in the U.S.



The second video shows the poor conditions in which many pigs are raised in the European Union, which is supposed to have much better humane standards than the U.S.:



Finally, this third video shows a pig playing with a ball...a simple toy pigs enjoy but people rarely give to them when raising them with the intent to kill. Pigs are very intelligent, social, curious animals, but humans usually deprive them of the chance to experience many of life's simple delights:

This is a very controversial topic and obviously many people have different opinions regarding whether we should eat meat. I am a meat eater but its more out of necessity than anything else. I would much rather be able to be a vegetarian but my school serves almost nothing that is healthy and vegetarian. I believe that people who want to eat meat should go ahead and do so, I am not stopping you but the way animals are raised precisely to be killed today is despicable. These animals are harshly treated and never get to enjoy themselves. These animals feel things too and deserve a better life. These processed animals are usually pumped with crap that should not be in them as it is which in turn negatively affects humans when we eat the meat. All of these hormones that are used to fatten up chickens, pigs and cows are extremely detrimental to your and my health but no one seems to care about that. Its all about profit in corporate America and the sad thing is nothing will probably change that.

Im not a vegan (atleast not yet) but I've never really liked meat that much. It just tastes really bland to me. Well sometimes you get a good steak, but that's quite rare since I'm a student and I don't have money to buy good steak or eat on a restaurant. So lately I've been mostly eating soy, beans etc. this is also do to me going into a new school where we get to choose a vegan lunch wich is usually really delicious and also my good friend went Pescetarian and we make alot of vegan food when were together.

Question for vegetarians and vegans.
Can you guys eat seitan? I think its great but I know some vegetarians avoid it because its too "meaty". I loved meat but I guess if you quit eating it because you didn't like the texture then you'd hate seitan too.
I've actually had eggplant and tofu that was so good that I had to check to see if I had eaten meat accidentally.....

sometimes i lie awake at night thinking about how many trillions upon trillions of creatures have died horrible, painful deaths in the jaws and claws of predators during the hundreds of millions of years that complex life has existed on this planet.

it kind of puts things in perspective, you know?

Um ...I gotta ask this:

Are the people opposed to eating meat brain-dead?

You do realize there's not even enough food on the planet as it is....you think we have starving people in the world now?...well...take meat out of the equation, and see what happens....think about that next time you're hugging a chicken.

I don't really care how they were treated....if they were in the jungle, a lion would rip them to shreds and eat them alive.

Now if you'll excuse me...my delicious steak is almost ready.

Not that I'm a vegetarian, but I don't really get your argument here. Generally speaking, it might take 10 kilos of food (like corn f.ex) to make a pig gain 1 kilo of meat. So if you want to maximize the amount of food there is in the world, you should drop the pig and just grow and eat the corn (and other veggies) you'd otherwise feed the pigs with.

My goodness Introvox, you really should have put some more thought in that posting dude :D

Cows eat grass.....how many people eat grass?

Cows and other animals also eat a lot of waste products that humans don't want, this is also a good thing.

Beef is the biggest consumption in the meat chain.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

You should have waited 1 more minute, to read my next post :)

haha, it doesn't matter man. Soooo much of the stuff we could actually eat goes to animal food...

Hahahaha....good comeback. :thumb:

So you'd rather eat the semi-spoiled veggies...the discolored corn, the carrots that didn't quite grow right, the less than perfect grains?...remember animals get lots of the stuff that humans would not pay for....do you garden?, do you eat a bean that has a big brown spot on it?...nope...but the animals would.

You also realize that meat production drives a huge chunk of the economy...do you actually think they would do it, if it cost more to raise the cow than they made off it in the end?

So you want the economy to crash?

Not to mention, a world full of iron deficient people.......

I think you should really do your research into vegetarianism before you make yourself sound like an ignorant ass.

I don't eat meat because I think it's disgusting. It's flesh to me, not food, so I'm not going to start eating it no matter how bad the economy is. Most people eat meat, so I don't think all the vegetarians in the world would really make that much of a difference.

Plus do you know that some religions actually forbid eating animal products? Does that make them "braindead"?

As for the iron issue, most vegetarian diets are heavy in soy products, and soy among lots of other beans is loaded with iron. Also, most meat replacement products are fortified with extra vitamins and being that vegetarians rely on plants in their diets, we also get the required amount of Vitamin C to better help absorb those vitamins.

I know this isn't the only ignorant statement in your stream of ignorant statements, but I thought I'd address this:

Most of the beef you're going to eat is corn-fed, grain-fed. Only "organic" beef is going to be grass fed, and that would be clearly marked as such.

Also, as for the waste products: They eat it out of necessity, not out of preference. The animals are being bred to be consumed, left in piss poor conditions, and then the only food they are offered is these "waste products". If you were locked up in a stall, I'm pretty sure you'd take whatever food you could get, rather than starve.

No, but close

It's yummy to me :)

(most the vegheads I know, are always sick, or feeling under the weather) <---there's my research

umm no

Hahahahaha....classic!

You still didn't address all of my points. People don't have to eat meat just because you like it. That's the grand thing about it. You just make yourself look like a jerk when you say such things about people who are vegetarians

Oh hey guys

Albert Einstein was a vegetarian, jsyk

I don't have to address your points...like I said, most of the vegheads I know are unhealthy...sure, some are not, but the bigger percentage IS.

So that in it self (plus my points about waste products and the economy) make me want to eat a big ass burger.

Who cares?
What's that supposed to prove?

You don't have to address them because I am right.


And as for the Albert Einstein thing, it obviously shows vegetarians are not braindead.

Untrue. I know a lot of fellow vegetarians, and we feel completely fine. We don't get sick anymore than average people. I could see where "bad vegetarians" would get sick from eating nothing but snack food because it doesn't have meat or something, but I'm fine.

Even when I ate meat, I had iron deficiency anemia - and all I do now is watch what I'm eating to get the appropriate vitamins, take an iron pill, and my iron levels are actually better now than they were when I ate meat.

See?...you need to pop pills to stay healthy....I don't.

From wiki: Side effects of therapy with iron are most often diarrhea or constipation and epigastric abdominal discomfort.

mmmm, sounds like fun.

oh wow

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/...ds/2je6we9.gif

...I had iron deficiency anemia before I stopped eating meat.

And I've had to take vitamins for it my whole life.

So way to be a d*ck.

Hey dude.

Sorry about your luck, but I had nothing what-so-ever to do with that.

All men/women are NOT created equal. Stop acting like we are.

d*ck!