Music Banter - Is Meat Really Murder?

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Originally Posted by kayleigh. (Post 867862)

I know what he means, sometimes it can be hard being a vegetarian when you're younger and your mother buys all the food, for instance even if I wanted to I couldn't be a vegetarian, I get no say in the shopping list. The vegetarian foods in my house are sides for meat and stuff, can't be eaten as meal, maybe a snack though. I tried when I was at school to be a vegetarian (Experimental, and sort of to do with animals) It was hard as my mother didnt buy me vegetarian meals because the whole family would then have to be vegetarian. Which wasn't an option. I sort of done it for the cruelty factor because I thought that it would make a difference, as I've got older I've gotten more cynical towards this kind of thing. I am only one (Wo)man. and can't make a difference in my opinion. Even now when I have my own job and stuff I can't be vegetarian, I have too many commitments to be prioritising buying suitable meals when my mum buys perfectly good fresh meat for me at no cost. A waste of money in my case.

My mum somehow is forcing the family to eat veggie whenever I'm around... too much pressure.

Haha it's like the whole family sulked at me because I wanted to be a little healthier too, arseholes. :(

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Originally Posted by james44754 (Post 867054)

Aye more people should get Leid.

yeahh they would feel more relaxed and not all tweaking out

And getting Leid will help this?

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It sounds like you feel we should care only about those beings who are "self-aware." How are you defining "self-aware," hip hop bunny hop?

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Also, I'd like to point out that a young human baby, say a 1-month-old, does not appear more self-aware than adult livestock animals...and actually less so in some ways. People used to think very young human babies couldn't experience pain, since little babies' brains are still rewiring quite a bit and babies don't *appear* to be very aware of what's going on. Some people seem to have similar beliefs (which I feel are false) about non-human animals such as cows, pigs, chickens, fish, etc.

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I feel that how an animal dies, whether peacefully in a field or chased down and ripped apart by a predator, makes a big difference to an animal like a rabbit! I am curious why you think the type of death would *not* make a difference. It sounds like you feel rabbits are unfeeling machines.

To be brief, I'd say a creature is "self-aware" when that creature has the capacity to exercise choice in a manner which goes beyond pavlovian conditioning. We can use the mirror test as the basic method for determining this capacity, if you like.

Yes, human babies aren't self aware until they are roughly 2 years old. Regarding the notion that babies can't feel pain; no, quite the opposite - the reason we don't retain memories from our extreme youth is because the prevalence of extreme pain....

In this aspect, babies and rabbits are similar; death makes no difference to the rabbit or infant because they lack the capacity to think; they've no concept of death or mortality. To the extent that they can feel pleasure and pain; these are mere sensory inputs, an evolutionary advantage.

The nature of the sensory inputs is really irrelevant; what the purpose of the inputs are is the important thing. The effect is the creatures are, to paraphrase what Calvin (the child friend of Hobbes) once said, "...driven by the inscrutable exhortations of the soul". There is no choice, no barter or bargain. Pain & pleasure, for these beings, exists only to whip and contort the being so that crass genetic drives can be momentarily satisfied.

...however, after a point, the rabbit and the infant diverge; the infant becomes self aware, begins to think. This allows the child to conceptualize death.... something our poor friend, the rabbit, is not capable of.

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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA (Post 867526)

I don't fear *you*, though, Tore. You are civilized and thoughtful. There are some people, though...predatory people...I wouldn't want to be with in the same room when they are hungry. Or if they had a weapon.

Hehe, thanks for the compliment! Don't forget cannibalism also grosses me out :p:

Okay, Erica's been good at posing questions to us meat eaters which has resulted in some interesting discussion. I would like to pose one to the meat eaters in this thread as well, especially those who aggressively defend their "right" to eat meat and seem to enjoy it much. The questions are these :

Questions : Some nations and cultures still hunt whales. If you visited one of these cultures or nations, would you eat minke whale? Or would you eat an endangered whale species like finwhale? Is there any okay tasting meat you wouldn't eat if it was served to you?

Sorry if some of these have been posed before!

I personally wouldn't eat whale, but not because I think it's wrong or whatever, I personally don't think it would taste nice in the slightest. Which nations still hunt whales, sorry? I visited china and found eating local food horrible. They mixed things that shouldn't be mixed lol. Most days we were served seaweed which made me sick :( needless to say I lost unnessesary weight on that holiday :(

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Originally Posted by kayleigh. (Post 868698)

Norway hunt minke whales (+/-600 a year I think), Japan hunts minke whales (similar numbers I think) and a small number from other species for research purposes. Iceland is also whaling and take a small amount of minke whales and fin whales, for the latter which is an endangered species, about 125 in 2009. Greenland also has cultural hunting (inuits) of some species like fin whales and so does Canada and the United States for species like gray whales and bowhead whales.

If they're endangered then I find it morally wrong. Wiping a species off the earth forever is selfish. But if they're not endangered then I don't have ny special views because it's a whale. I just wouldn't eat it :)

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Originally Posted by kayleigh. (Post 868705)

I agree with your moral stance! I don't have a problem with any kind of hunting per se as long as it's sustainable at the most conservative level. By that I mean you should figure out how much you can take out without seriously harming the population (keeping it sustainable) and then set the quota well below that number so that you have room for errors or other unforeseen events. "Safe it" as they say!

Utilitarianism has been used as an argument earlier. From a utilitaristic point of view, I'd say an animal which is hunted has lived a "happy" natural life and, although a natural life can certainly include a lot of suffering, I would argue that on the whole, it causes less suffering than what you find in the meat industry. Therefore, killing and eating an animal may be preferable to "imprisoning" that animal and slaughter it once it's fat enough.