ThePhanastasio

I'm a vegetarian. I have been for years. I do, however, think that it's somewhat bizarre for people to say that "Meat is murder". Always have.

My not eating meat is a personal decision, one which I recognize I must supplement with vitamins and such daily in order to remain healthy. (I also have iron deficiency anemia, which means it's particularly important that I take vitamins and eat the proper foods. If I go just a day without doing so, I get really sleepy and feel like crap.)

But meat isn't murder - not by a long stretch. I don't like the way that our meat is processed, nor do I like how the animals are treated. I find it extremely unfair that we breed animals for the sole purpose of eating them - they don't even get a chance.

If people actually hunted their food in the wild to eat, I'd have less of a problem with it, I suppose. I feel like at least then, the animals have a fighting chance and get to live their lives the way they were meant to live them...before the predators (us) ate them. That's just the way things work in the wild. It's natural.

I don't look at a cheetah eating an antelope and start crying foul, exclaiming that the cheetah is a murderer. It's a freaking cheetah. It eats meat.

As such, people are omnivores. We do have certain intelligence and moral codes which other animals don't have, which means we can choose to not eat meat in keeping with our personal set of ethics. It also means we can continue to eat meat if it strikes our fancy.

It's a matter of preference. Not murder.

Guybrush

Ah, when I think of free range, I usually think of how it's regulated by the European Union.

> Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range

Of course, Norway is not part of the European Union so exactly what free range chicken means here, I don't know. They do exist here, but it's a relatively rare sight. The last time I went to find free range chicken in the store around the corner, they didn't have any. Poor chickorinos.

__________________
Something Completely Different

Dirty

I am not a vegetarian, and I never will be. Gay pun aside, I just love meat. Steaks, pork chops, ribs, bacon, etc. Absolutely delicious.

I don't have any moral hold-up with killing animals and eating them.

Percy Thrillington

Im not a veggie but Im heading that way slowly, i think. I used to be able to eat any meat at all, it didnt matter how it was cooked I'd eat it. It was the sight of blood on my plate that did it for me, doesnt matter which way i looked at it i was eating blood and flesh. If i eat meat now it has to be so well cooked its a waste of money, chicken or pork..........nooooo thanks.

Its not the cruelty aspect that bothers me, i dont sit and wonder how the animal was killed that im eating and I agree Humans are meant to eat meat, i just cant get my head around the fact that Im eating flesh.

Having said all of the above ya cant beat a bacon and egg sandwich with HP sauce.

VEGANGELICA

I agree with you on many of your views, Phanastasio, such as not blaming cheetahs for being obligatory carnivores, although I'm sorry for the antelope.

Also, I agree that people killing and eating an animal isn't murder in the legal sense. Murder means specifically the intentional killing of another human being (who does not want to be killed).

But is a human who kills and eats an animal still committing murder in the ethical sense?

If I were to walk down a street and see a golden retriever on a lawn enjoying playing with a ball, and if I were to grab her by the scruff of her neck, take out my knife while she yelps, and slit her throat so I can eat her when I don't need to, is that ethically the equivalent of murder?

How different is that scenario from what people have sometimes done, which is kill little children to eat them (such as occurred in North Korea, according to reports, during the famines of 2002)? Both a 3-year-old human child and a young dog are enjoying their lives up until someone kills them. Both of them feel fear and pain. Both of them lack a clear understanding of life/death issues. Why is killing the golden retriever not also ethically murder like killing the little human child is?

Another way in which our views differ is that you feel eating meat is a "personal" choice. I feel that killing and eating an animal is *not* a personal choice, because you affect not just yourself but someone else...and you affect that individual very horribly, by taking her or his life. That isn't personal.

The EU is much better than the U.S. in its humane farming standards, and I admire that about Europeans. They seem to have a stronger conscience in some ways. Americans seem more likely to do anything for money.

Iowa has the most egg-laying hens of any state in the U.S., and given the weather here you know almost all of them are indoors in unlit, sealed buildings in tiny cages for their whole lives. Poor chickorinos is right!!

Even when I was a small child, I knew I loved animals more than I liked meat.

I'm always curious, Dirty, how it happens that certain people feel this empathy for other animals, while others apparently don't. I think one reason I may feel a strong protective sense about animals is that I've always had a feeling of wonder for them. I'm amazed they are alive and aware. I'd hate to be the one to end or contribute to the ending of their one chance to experience awareness.

I hope if I ever meet anyone bigger, stronger, and smarter than I, she will have mercy on me as well and not decide to kill and eat me because I am delicious. Because I probably am!

__________________

Dirty

I love animals too. I love dogs, I have 3 of them and they are awesome. But livestock animals are best suited for making food. We are the master species of this planet. What can an animal really achieve through life? They are content grazing around in a field their entire lives and eating grass. They aren't smart. I feel that as the master race, we should use animals to better ourselves, whether it be through eating them or even just the financial aspect that it brings.

Arya Stark

How do you know those animals are content grazing around in a field?
Don't you think that if they had something to do OTHER than grazing around in a field eating grass, that they would want to do it?
I'm the last vegetarian in the world to preach about why other people should be vegetarians, and that's not what I'm doing here. I simply think your argument is ignorant. We're not the "master race," we just are able to use the technology we've made and the languages we've constructed. I'm sure animals discover things all of the time, things we would never in the world be able to understand.
So what does the "master race" do? Over feed and over produce animals to weights they aren't supposed to be, keep them in horribly unhealthy living situations, and then kill them. They never had a name.

If I'm not mistaken, pigs are smarter than your three dogs. So how come your dogs get to run around with not a care in the world while pigs have to suffer?

I've been a meat eater before, meat tastes good, i get it. I miss it. But I don't eat it because of the ways animals are treated.
But there are SO many meat-eaters who understand my point of view as I understand theirs. Actually, I just read your reply to Erica to my three friends, who all eat meat, and they think you sound quite ignorant as well.

__________________

MB Journal.
Azucar y Especia. My blog.

Dirty

I'm flattered you would read my posts aloud!

Just as equally ignorant is you pretending to know what animals think as well.

Nope. Well, I think animals like cows would be content doing whatever they were made to do. But I think they are content to eat grass and roam a field all day. We are the master race because we are smart and create things that are beneficial to the world. The advancements of man over the past 100 years is astounding. Obviously animals aren't going to solve any world problems with their knowledge. They don't have common sense.

As for dogs, i guess that's just society's preferance for a pet rather than a pig. I sure as hell don't want a pig as a pet, but would love a dog as one. Doesn't really involve intelligence. Dolphins are supposedly very smart, but they aren't practical as pets, just like pigs aren't. Also, dogs can't be cooked to make delicious bacon!

Arya Stark

I no longer have any desire to argue with someone like you. You're being extremely rude and like I said, you're being ignorant.


And for the record, no, you didn't win the argument, you're just annoying.

__________________

MB Journal.
Azucar y Especia. My blog.

Dirty

To me there is no winning or losing. Just expressing opinions, and perhaps you don't take to other peoples opinions well. I don't know what you found rude or ignorant about my thoughts... I just don't have a problem with killing animals for food.