MoonlitSunshine

:P Yes, for some. According to some of Erica's experiences, however, such courtesies are not so common elsewhere.

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- Arthur Dent

hip hop bunny hop

So, when hosting a party:

Omnivores = must provide a vegetarian option
Vegetarians = don't have to provide any meat

??? That is idiotic.

Eh? Bursting into tears because someone is eating Lobster doesn't strike you as dramatic?

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MoonlitSunshine

1) It costs you absolutely nothing to provide a meal that is vegetarian alongside whatever you are making for yourself. Most meals can be altered so, and are generally cheaper than meat. Be glad that your guest is saving you money :P

2) When you prepare a meal with meat in it, it generally involves handling raw meat. I would not presume to ask a vegetarian to handle raw meat. That's ridiculous :/

Basically, Vegetarians have a problem with meat, for some reason or another. I don't have a problem with vegetarianism, I just like eating meat. I will eat vegetarian meals happily, I just make sure that I make up for it with the other meals of the day, or have an extra meaty meal the next day to sate my own desires.

It comes back to what I was saying about compromise: I would object to never being able to eat meat, because that would be discrimination against my way of life. That said, I don't have to have meat in every meal. Hell, most people don't have meat in every single meal. So not having meat in one more meal isn't a big thing. Forcing a vegetarian to put aside their feelings about meat, murder and whatever they feel about the morality of it all, is a major ask. It doesn't hurt you on any level to not have meat when you go to a vegetarian's house. To do otherwise is to force your beliefs on another... I could go on, but I'm basically just saying the same thing over and over.

Regarding the lobster - the way lobster is cooked is horrible. I believe there are places in the world that now consider the live boiling of lobsters illegal with fines of up to €500. Not a lot, but it's at least a start. I'm not particularly empathic towards animals, but I can understand why someone who would be a vegetarian for moral and empathic reasons would react strongly to the way lobsters are boiled alive. It would be excessive for me, but it doesn't make the cause any less justified.

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"I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?"

- Arthur Dent

VEGANGELICA

My point is that our culture says people should not be cruel to animals. Being kind to animals is considered a "good" thing. I agree with you completely that there isn't consensus on what constitutes "cruelty," and not just toward non-human animals, but also toward humans.

Perhaps, bunny hop, you and I agree that people should not be cruel to animals, but a main reason I am vegan and you are not is that we disagree on what constitutes "cruelty."

What makes you feel those pictures I showed, real scenes from the livestock industry, are propaganda...pictures of downer cows, a rabbit slaughterhouse, and a person pulling a sheep by her or his leg?

If those scenes seemed too isolated to you, then consider the following common practices within the livestock industry. Tell me why these widespead industry practices aren't "cruel":

(1) Killing the male calves of dairy cows. All of them. You should be familiar with this practice, since you worked in the dairy industry.

The treatment of male calves and other cattle at New York's largest dairy factory farm is shown in an undercover video from 2009 at the link below. How did your dairy factory farm differ from this one?

Dairy Investigation | Mercy For Animals


(2) Killing all the male chicks of egg-laying hens, millions per year, often by maceration (grinding them while alive and conscious).

Undercover Investigation at Hy-Line Hatchery in Iowa shows the grinding of male chicks
Ground Up Alive: Baby Chicks Suffer | Care2 Causes



(3) "Thumping" ill or small piglets (bashing their heads against the floor), castrating piglets without anaesthetic, and confining sows in gestation crates.

The following 2011 article, including a video, describes and shows these practices at an Iowan hog factory farm:

Undercover activist draws attention to pork producer's questionable practices | abc7news.com

This 2008 pamphlet, "On-Farm Euthanasia of Swine: Recommendations for the Producer," published by the National Pork Board (from Iowa), describes that the accepted way to kill piglets who weigh up to 12 pounds is by blunt trauma:

http://www.aasv.org/aasv/documents/SwineEuthanasia.pdf

^ All three practices that I list in bold above are standard in the animal industry in the U.S., although a few states have outlawed sow gestation crates thanks to activists and voters, including meat-eaters, concerned about cruelty toward animals.

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lucifer_sam

Erica all you're doing is pointing to more abuses by the hands of industrialized farming practices. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here that disagrees with you.

It's not like you're not making valid points here, but your deductive reasoning of "I shouldn't eat meat whatsoever then" is sincerely corrupt logic. That's your own personal choice, and not the supersession of moral responsibility you seem to identify it as.

Doing what you can to rectify these issues should not come to persuading others to abandon meat entirely. That sort of arrogance is the sort of thing that entrenches meat-eaters further in their own set ways.

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first.am

skaltezon

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@ hip hop bunny hop:

VEGANGELICA's propaganda is supported by evidence that at least one factory farm mistreats animals. The video link that she posted was recorded by an undercover worker, depicting operations at the Willet Dairy in Locke, NY between December 2008 and February 2009. The differing 'reality' of your own experience at a single farm obviously doesn't establish a broader reality that contradicts her.

.

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Above

I don't eat anything with a shadow.

Nah, just kidding. I like the taste of meat and we're omnivores naturally, so I see no reason why it's murder. Is it murder for an animal to kill another animal for food?

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Be pure,
Be vigilant,
Behave

VEGANGELICA

Ha ha! This reminds me of those funny lines from the song, "The Bad Touch":

"You and me, baby, we ain't nothin' but mammals,
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

The question I'd ask you, Above, is whether we humans *should* do what other animals do, especially since we are omnivores (which means we are able to eat meat but don't have to in order to survive) and have a biological and mental capacity to choose not to eat meat.

Your question makes me wonder whether you rationalize other actions as acceptable because animals do them. Infanticide? Eating the father of your babies? I assume you don't support *those* behaviors found in the animal kingdom.

If we use the argument that eating meat is ethically acceptable human behavior because other animals do it, doesn't this suggest that you should support all human behaviors modeled after non-human animal behaviors? What makes you pick and choose among animal behaviors to select those that you feel people should emulate?

Put bluntly (and not meaning to scare you): I am "naturally" a killer. I have the capacity to kill anyone, any being. Why shouldn't I?

Bloodhound Gang - "The Bad Touch"



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@ skaltezon

Thank you for recognizing that at least one person here (hip hop bunny hop) seems to deny abuses by the livestock industry, contrary to lucifer_sam's claim that "I think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone here that disagrees" about "abuses by the hands of industrialized farming practices."

Thank you also for posting more information about some of the findings of undercover investigations of livestock industries. I've been looking through http://www.mercyforanimals.org/dairy..._Complaint.pdf.

You might be interested to read about the coordinated and successful attempts of agricultural companies to get states to pass "anti-whistleblower" laws that make undercover farm videos illegal. The proposed law in Minnesota would make it illegal not just to produce an undercover video at a factory farm, but also to possess and distribute it:

Minnesota next up to pass law banning undercover farm videos | Grist

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Above

I say it's natural because it's part of our biological needs. Sure you can survive as a vegetarian but it adds an unnecessary amount of focus. It's easier and more convenient to get your protein fix from meat.

And you're quite right that you're naturally a killer. We are murderers as a race. The only species that kills one another for personal gain or pleasure are humans.

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Be pure,
Be vigilant,
Behave

Guybrush

Sorry, but this is a wishy washy hippie myth and quite frankly bollocks. For a social species of mammals, humans are not actually particularly violent. We create societies with laws that help us control the small minority of those of us who are. If you look at a society of Common chimpanzees, you'll find that it's a lot more violent than any society of humans.

If you want an example of the kind of violence which exists in nature, infanticide f.ex is not uncommon.

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