Is Meat Really Murder?

ProggyMan · 02-20-2010, 08:11 PM

Actually animal farming can be a key part of an ecosystem. What makes animal farming so inefficient is the globalized industry it has become.

VEGANGELICA · 02-20-2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

Actually animal farming can be a key part of an ecosystem. What makes animal farming so inefficient is the globalized industry it has become.

Yes, ProggyMan, animal manure can be a good fertilizer, although green manures (in which leguminous plant crops are used to create fertilizer) also work.

The industrialization of animal agriculture, in which large numbers of animals are confined, does result in major problems--I agree with you. For example, it results in massive quantities of fertilizer difficult to spread on fields...and actually spreading the fertilizer in large quantities is harmful to the environment.

Evidence: the Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Iowa and other ag states along the Mississippi River create fertilizer runoff that not only frequently kills fish, but also leads to algal blooms in the Gulf of Mexico, followed by decay, oxygen consumption, and vast underwater areas devoid of life.

While it can be argued that livestock animals are a good source of manure, the irony is that much of the cropland on which manure is spread is being used to produce corn and soybeans to feed...the livestock. Much of the protein and energy in the crops is then burned up by the livestock animals. Only a fraction of the original number of calories available in the plants ends up as calories in the flesh consumed by people. Very little of the cropland around me in Iowa is used to grow plants for direct human consumption. The pollution Iowa produces is due primarily to the livestock (and ethanol) industries. Since I live with this all around me, it is hard to forget.

ProggyMan · 02-20-2010, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Yes, ProggyMan, animal manure can be a good fertilizer, although green manures (in which leguminous plant crops are used to create fertilizer) also work.

The industrialization of animal agriculture, in which large numbers of animals are confined, does result in major problems--I agree with you. For example, it results in massive quantities of fertilizer difficult to spread on fields...and actually spreading the fertilizer in large quantities is harmful to the environment.

Evidence: the Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico. Iowa and other ag states along the Mississippi River create fertilizer runoff that not only frequently kills fish, but also leads to algal blooms in the Gulf of Mexico, followed by decay, oxygen consumption, and vast underwater areas devoid of life.

While it can be argued that livestock animals are a good source of manure, the irony is that much of the cropland on which manure is spread is being used to produce corn and soybeans to feed...the livestock. Much of the protein and energy in the crops is then burned up by the livestock animals. Only a fraction of the original number of calories available in the plants ends up as calories in the flesh consumed by people. Very little of the cropland around me in Iowa is used to grow plants for direct human consumption. The pollution Iowa produces is due primarily to the livestock (and ethanol) industries. Since I live with this all around me, it is hard to forget.

What you're railing against is the globalization and industrialization of the food industry. As Michael Pollen says: "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

Guybrush · 02-21-2010, 06:29 AM

Erica, if you look away from possible ecological problems that might result from overtaxing populations and so on and look at it purely from a moral standpoint - how do you feel about hunting compared to slaughtering farm animals?

VEGANGELICA · 02-21-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProggyMan

What you're railing against is the globalization and industrialization of the food industry. As Michael Pollen says: "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

Definitely, plant-based diets (even with some animal products) are preferable to the typical developed-world diet heavy on animal flesh and fats and processed carbohydrates.

And the industrialization of the food industry does bother me...you are very right. For example, it is very difficult to eat locally here in Iowa, where we have the best topsoil in the world, because the government system of subsidies supports the planting of corn and soybeans to the exclusion of almost all other vegetables and fruits. Some locations have an excuse (poor soil) not to produce local crops for human consumption; Iowa has none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Erica, if you look away from possible ecological problems that might result from overtaxing populations and so on and look at it purely from a moral standpoint - how do you feel about hunting compared to slaughtering farm animals?

If I had to choose, Tore, I would prefer people to hunt wild animals (preferably using their bare hands

) rather than raise and slaughter captive animals. This would reduce the consumption of animals and be better for humans and ecosystems alike. And the life experience of the wild animals would be closer to the life of freedom that I would prefer for any animal.

On the positive side of hunting, at least the animals have had a chance to be free, make decisions for themselves, and have a greater variety of experiences (closeness with family members and friends; the chance to forage, to relax in the sun, etc.). On the negative side, killing with bow and arrow or gun hurts them (before killing them)...and usually is completely *unnecessary* unless you are an eskimo or live in an impoverished country where you are essentially a hunter-gatherer.

Slaughtering farm animals...the actual slaughter...however, is often far from humane. Poultry are many times not stunned; even cows sometimes end up conscious while being dismembered. Pigs get boiled alive. And the life before the animals get to the slaughterhouse (if they make it...many die or are killed young) is often miserable: egg-laying hens stacked up in tiny cages in continual darkness for their whole lives, for example. I feel killing an animal suddenly through hunting would be preferable to the callous, methodical, mechanized slaughterhouse...but not killing them at all would be morally the best!

Thanks for asking, Tore!

Guybrush · 02-21-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Thanks for asking, Tore!

Thanks for the answer

And I agree with your reasoning!

NumberNineDream · 02-22-2010, 01:59 PM

I ate a chicken strip yesterday, after stopping all kind of meat for more than 2 weeks

I was too drunk to notice what I was eating.

Captain Awesome · 02-24-2010, 04:34 PM

No. It's not murder.

We are omnivores. We are simply surviving.

FETCHER. · 02-25-2010, 07:29 AM

^ what he says.

Plus when I eat meat I've never ever thought to myself that it used to be a living thing. Or about how it's life was.

It'll sound nasty, but I just like to get stuck in, I don't ponder about and think about if it had a good life. I just eat it...

Arya Stark · 02-25-2010, 11:55 AM

Just playing devil's advocate.
If you don't think about it, it doesn't make what you're doing alright.

02-21-2010, 06:29 AM	#184 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Erica, if you look away from possible ecological problems that might result from overtaxing populations and so on and look at it purely from a moral standpoint - how do you feel about hunting compared to slaughtering farm animals? __________________ Something Completely Different

02-22-2010, 01:59 PM	#187 (permalink)
NumberNineDream Blue Bleezin' Blind Drunk Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The land of the largest wine glass (aka Lebanon) Posts: 2,200	I ate a chicken strip yesterday, after stopping all kind of meat for more than 2 weeks I was too drunk to notice what I was eating. __________________ Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Welcome to the Black Lodge

02-24-2010, 04:34 PM	#188 (permalink)
Captain Awesome On A Rampage Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 317	No. It's not murder. We are omnivores. We are simply surviving. __________________ "If we're all merely players in a play on this great stage, the problem is the script writers ain't on the same page, I echo through the mountain when I'm singing in the air, from my lab a lad with lavish lyrics living in his lair." "Wake up and listen, hear what's not for the public's ears Pinocchio poets played by profiting puppeteers"

02-20-2010, 08:11 PM	#181 (permalink)
ProggyMan Reformed Jackass Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,964	Actually animal farming can be a key part of an ecosystem. What makes animal farming so inefficient is the globalized industry it has become.