I think people are reading far too much into things.

I don't think this board is dying at all, and I don't think it's any worse than it used to be.
People come & go. Just because someone who's been here a while decides to not be here doesn't mean it's the end of the world.

I can remember a time on this forum when people like Tore, Bulldog, Jackhammer & Mr Dave were not here. Did the forum suck then? No because there were other people there at the time. Those people left and were eventually replaced by the members I just mentioned.

Will a blog make any difference? Personally I think not. I don't come here to read a blog I come here to chat to others. If I want to read a blog i'll read a specialist one dedicated to the subject I want to read about, not an all encompassing one that might not have anything on it that'll interest me.

Personally I think if people go around with their head up their arse complaining 'it's not as good as it used to be' all the time it'll put people off, and then the place really will die.

I think a blog would be great :) Even if it wouldn't be interesting to people outside of musicbanter, it could serve as a portal to what goes on on the forums. Kinda like this :

Ehr, sorry for not writing an example about music, but anyways - it would of course have several such blogposts on the mainpage and stay updated with the most interesting threads/write-ups/going-ons.

I have no problem with people wanting a blog.

I just think there are things that would make a bigger impact on the place that should be done first.

Like a chat room & extra PM space.
Things that people would actually use.

Definitely. I visit a gaming forum that has their own "front page" for news and reviews and all that. I'm thinking the same kind of thing could work for MB, though maybe a bit more forum-focused.

Similarly, on a political forum we have a "breaking news" section. It helps frame discussions even if they aren't completely related. With music that may end up being arguments on music more so than album reviews, but its worth a shot.

I've already sent a PM to Yac asking if it might be possible to host such a blog. I wrote perhaps we can first make a sort of draft-blog and host it on blog.musicbanter.com so that admin and others can see what it would look like/be like before it's actually implemented in the site in a proper way. I'm guessing it won't happen, but asking doesn't hurt :)

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean.
A front page with selected members articles etc. With the existing forums beyond the front page.
Nothing radical at all. Just an upgrade to make this old place look more presentable while the mods and Admin determine the format and content.

^ You probably guessed right, though it won't hurt to ask.

Speaking generally. So we can remove any negativity here, this should be a positive thread about where MB is going and not one about it's misconceived demise.
Just to echo Big3's opening post. He's not actually saying anything is wrong with MB as it is, but he does raise the question that this place is in danger of losing it's appeal after a while.
That certainly seems to be the case with some of the longer standing members who have left over the years. And it always seems the case that those older members that do leave, do so feeling a little disillusioned.
And it needn't be like that.
Not when you can get those members actively helping the site move forward in order to keep their interest.

I may have jumped the gun, but it was a little hard to read your Vegangelica-esque disertation there. My bad. Not trying hard to be right- would rather be wrong, as I enjoy frequenting here. I just think that without admin support, places tend to fall off... Carry on like it never happened.

I've felt like this occasionally myself, but most of the things I get particularly familiar with, be they message boards or, I dunno, eating tuna and pasta for dinner, start to lose their shine eventually, so it's certainly not something I blame this place for. For me it's just a question of doing enough here to keep myself interested - if this place is boring, I try my best to make it un-boring again. A kind of facelift that's already been mentioned numerous times for this place would make that a whole lot easier for all concerned.

Hey, I read that! :) And "dissertation" has two s's, by the way. ;)

I'm very sorry to hear Jackhammer left...hopefully not for good...though I agree with Urban that people will come and go as suits them, and this doesn't mean the site is diminished as a whole. I continue to meet new members each month with whom I enjoy interacting and whom a genuinely like, even as I miss some of the members who never return. (AwwSugar, you better not leave!!!)

This is my viewpoint exactly, Big3. I have only skimmed the surface of the music information and opinions on MB, and so can't imagine ever running out of new music to listen to or think about here.

I agree that cruelty toward others based on their preferences or because of their attempts to contribute to MB is something I wish MB would discourage even more than it does.

During the last 8 months, there have been several cases where new or older members end up discussing their musical questions or lyrics with me in PMs partly because, I think, they feared their contributions would not receive helpful information or constructive feedback on the Boards.

In one situation, the person was a young musician whose music was a delight for me to listen to and discuss with him by PM after his thread got closed when a mod felt it was pure self-promotion. So, I felt sorry for MB because here was someone who had a great love of music and yet was not welcomed as openly as he might have been.

In another situation, someone who asked a legitimate question on the Boards, but was pounced on and accused of being The Unfan, ended up discussing music with me back and forth in PMs. That was one of the best music discussions I've had here...I learned about "counterpoint" and compared and contrasted modern and classical songs by following up his questions.

Similarly, several people who write lyrics have sent me the songs they are working on in PMs for feedback (which, if you are familiar with me on MB, you'll know I love to give!)..and I think it is sad that perhaps the Boards don't make them feel welcome to share their ideas in public, since that is what MB is for (I feel).

I agree with your first paragraph very much, duga. As for the second, I feel that saying negative things is fine, but saying them in ways that aren't insulting is important.

One of the things I like best about MB is that the mods let people pretty much express what they really feel in the way they want to. Free speech (even with limitations) is rare in the world, and it is nice to find a place where you can just be who you are, or let different sides of yourself show.

The negative side of free speech is that fear of being pounced on harshly can make it harder for some people to feel like opening up about their feelings about music, which is often very personal to people. I don't think people are pounced on often here, but it does happen occasionally.

That would be cool, right-track! :)

I certainly feel your opinion counts just as much as anyone else's, Phoenix!

Your post shows, noise, how hopefully MB can provide something for everyone: banter for people who don't like verbose reviews; verbose reviews (my favorite!) for people who like them; casual interactions for those who don't wish to make friends; friendships and a feeling of connection for those who came here open to that (such as myself).

Though I joined MB for the music and I stay for the music, the connections I've made with some people here are what really make me want to return with semi-addicted frequency. I feel anything that helps people feel part of a friendly community would help MB become even stronger.

This concludes my dissertation on improving message boards.

I feel like that sometimes, when I get writers block I think maybe I really didn't have much to say after all. Sometimes thinking 'who cares about the bands I like,' gives me writers block. Though I don't think could ever say it all about what I know about music. I always tell myslef they is so much music out there that no one could know it all, if they say they do then their lying.

It doesn't matter how long you've been at MB or your post count, all that matters is posting highly well polished material in your posts. So quit worrying about being "newbie" or an invalid, you'll get better.

I can: Fal, ToeAndNo, Veridical Fiction, and CoreyAllen2, have all left. And I seen a lot of new members who gave up the fight and thrown in the towel after a few posts.
I go back and read the old threads (not to sound corny or sentimental or anything) but the one guy I miss is SleepyJack.

is this a serious comment?

Fal hasn't made a substantial contribution to the music forums.
ToeAndNo changed his name to Akira and took a leave of absence.
Veridical Fiction changed his name to Freebase Dali, he's still very much active.
coryallen2 pissed off every member of this forum until we couldn't take it anymore and put him down as a courtesy to the other members. Something you might want to consider not emulating from time to time.

I agree, a lot of times I would like to talk about music with as much specificity as I can here. Sadly, not many are able to do that...but most people here can so this is my outlet. I have a feeling I would get on quite well with many of you if we were to meet in person.

Neapolitan never pisses me off, lucifer_sam, so if there ever comes a time when you want to "put him down," please do not include me in your "we." It sounds to me like you may be implying that such a thing might happen to Neapolitan, and I would fiercely oppose this action.

Also, I hope people being pissed off by a member isn't a main reason anyone would be "put down." Even if someone *did* piss me off due to his or her attitudes or behaviors that I perceive as unhelpful to MB (though not violating the rules), I would still not want that member to be banned.

I don't have the expectation that everyone will "get along" in any community. They certainly don't in real communities, so I see no reason why an online community wouldn't or shouldn't be the same (except that too many spats distract from music discussion and might make the administration fear loss of members and revenue).

Plus, the hope that people who don't get along will learn to do so creates an exciting potential. Look at me and The Unfan! It's a beautiful, real-life story, really: we moved past our differences and found our commonalities...and I continue to have respectful interactions with him. Maybe, someday, even you and *I* might get along, lucifer_sam! :p:

I tend to get into the details myself, Duga, and I'm glad you've found similar minds here. As for MB members meeting in person, I'm always happy when I hear of it happening, which it does. I feel it shows the community is working when people actually make *real* friendships here that become part of their non-computer lives.

Sadly my dear you are very, very wrong. Urban actually polled the members to see what would be done with coryallen2, it wasn't unanimous but it was most definitely decisive. Whether or not you agree isn't relevant to me.

And everybody needs a thorn in their side to work well together, without you where would I turn to abuse radical veganism? :)

I rather like having a "nemesis," so maybe this works out well for both of us. :)

Although it is hard to think of anyone who calls me "my dear" as a nemesis, I will try, for your sake, to be a good thorn.

The number one problem with this site, more than anything else, is that there is no function to "like" posts, a la facebook.

Messages boards go downhill when the Radiohead thread stays on the first page of the Indie/Alt section for years...which turns everyone into Radiohead fanbois and it's a slow and barely noticeable process. Soon everyone has "Ok Computer" in their lastfm library and everyone wants to get on Thom Yorke's meat stick. The only way to notice this is, 1) your top artist is Radiohead and, 2) you want Thom Yorke's ****.

I only flipped through the novel on the next page of this thread, so I don't know what's going on there, but I agree whole-heartedly with this statement here.

For individuals who've been here a while, yes, you may become disillusioned, discouraged, or just not like the direction things are going. But you don't have to screw it up for the new people by reiterating over and over again how much you dislike it.

Don't be a kill joy! Be on your way and let the n00bs have fun.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, but will applaud any post with "meat stick" in it.

This is my life cycle. I do this one one site, and then when I start getting to the final stage, I change sites and start it again.

I don't think anyone is screwing the site up for anyone. This thread was started by a non leaver and people have been giving their opinions whether positive or negative and have a right to do that whether others agree or not. Sometimes a different opinion is what pushes things forward but even so I haven't seen a whole bunch of threads or posts constantly bemoaning the site.

I myself have left MB generally on the quiet as I'm disillusioned with the site but that can be attributed to a personal preference and not neccessarily an elitist attitude whereby I think I'm above anyone else on here etc

Because I genuinely do love music, it forms such a huge part of my life I guess I have been looking for acceptance and/or validation for my musical preferences and when that hasn't always been forthcoming I dwelt on that but now I am perfectly happy to go back into my own little bubble that I was in before I came to this site and realise that I am stupid and naive to crave that acceptance and should (and do) just go ahead and listen to what the hell I like.

There is no doubt that MB has broadened my musical tastes even more and it is one of the very best music forums out there but like a few others I can see the potential of the site being much more than just another internet forum with the wealth of knowledgeable and intelligent posters we have amassed on here this site could be THE place to go for most music fans whilst still holding onto it's identity and lack of professional critics which grounds the views in the everyday fan and not the educated journalist types who can lose touch with the grass roots of music.

Saying that there are many who like the format of the site and I fully respect that. I'm just proffering my views on my lack of visits and contributions here anymore and I can't speak for others who don't frequent the site as much as they used too.

^ I understand what you're saying. But it seems, to me anyway, that there are a few who seem to sign on simply to let everyone know how much "MB sucks", why they dislike it, and/or why they are leaving.

And those people should chill out and just leave if that's what they want to do. Not stir the pot.

^i agree
in most forums you will have people that will do that. In my opinion people just do that for attention. I just scroll past them and read a different thread/reply on the site(s).
thanks
the iron man

I'm not sure I see anyone issuing negative remarks in this thread.
It seems to me that the majority of posts are split between the ones who wish the site was moving on to better things and those who wish the site to remain as it is.
Big3's opening post is a call to the members here to raise the standard themselves with what we already have, rather than bemoan the site for what they perceive it currently is.

I wasn't limiting my comment to this thread I guess. Just seems to be something noticeable throughout the forum sometimes.

How are they stirring the pot if they are providing a counter opinion? It's all about balance. What's the point in giving an opinion (however right or wrong as perceived by others) if they are told to just leave if they don't like it? Maybe they want to stay and hope that little changes would keep them onboard?

Agreed.

I don't think you are stupid and naive, Jackhammer, to crave acceptance of your musical tastes. It is only natural to enjoy finding people who feel or respond the same way you do to music. I think there must be many people here who share a lot of your musical tastes.

What are ways to implement some of the ideas you and right-track and others have suggested for improving the site yet still retain its basic current structure, in case the administrator doesn't want major rearrangements?

I've tried to bring this to the admin's attention and suggested using a wordpress blog as a frontpage. It's easily tailored to look the way you want and it's made for multiple users with different levels/privileges. By using plugins, you can add all sorts of functionality and you (or an admin like Yac) can also update the wordpress platform and plugins with the click of a button, so it's easy to maintain.

However, I've had no real answer from Yac/admin yet and it's been quite a while now.

My guess is they don't want the basic appearance of the front page to change, since I recall they didn't want obvious and reasonable (to me) changes such as stating rules right on the MB front page at the very top...which is what another (unnamed but nice) music forum does, one with a "z" in the name instead of an "s." :p: (I'm trying to be secretive and subtle here, Tore.)

Could a wordpress blog be added as a forum up at the top of the current front page in the "MB Reader" section right above "Album Reviews"? Then those who like what this would offer could still have it available and at least in a prominent position...yet admin might be more likely to accept such a minor change?

You could also put right-track's proposed "Band Interviews" up there!! :tramp: First up, Muse! (Ha ha ha! That's for you, Urban!)

Say, why doesn't MB allow embedding playlists in profiles? This is such a nice feature of...uh...another...uh...music forum. I really like that feature...you get to hear right away people's taste in music. Did I say like? I mean LOVE. With an embedded playlist you could click on MusicBanter friends' profiles and see the playlists right away and listen listen listen to the songs they love. I'd be on this site almost constantly when I do computer work if I could listen to friends' playlists all from this one location.

My guess is they can't be bothered to have any additional input into this site than they already have.
The owners have other sites that are more important to them than this one.
So long as the money keeps on rolling in I doubt the status quo will change.
Don't expect any changes other than cosmetic ones. Superficial ones at that.

The short attention span in our culture plays a role, but whether a particular forum lasts or not has to do with the utility it provides its members. Most people, I think, use these kinds of forums to discover new music they haven't heard, or to filter the avalanche of new releases.

If it becomes about the poster rather than the music, the utility is severely reduced for the vast majority of people.

That said, some come for the arguments.

lol, I love how this points starts out about a lack of attention spans.

Even funnier when you consider the members directly above and below his post have a combined attention span exceeding 10 years.

amen.

I blame any realized attention deficit on depression medication. You don't learn memory until you learn to hold a grudge.

So the fact that you've been a member for so long means what in terms of my point? These types of forums usually decline when they become insular...the same people talking about the same things in the same way. Without new people injecting new opinions, and bringing new information to the game, they decline. It is when the members can predict what a poster will say, which band they will laud, and how they will react to a new realease, because they've heard it before, that they move on. At least that has been my experience with on-line forums.

Haven't been around this particular place long enough to know how it applies here.

well, that was my point in the original post.

But I should point out that no one made mention of how long (or short) anyone's been a member here.

Know what is even funnier? He joined a music forum and already lost interest in talking music and started posting in the Lounge - shortest attention span ever!