Trite sayings that people think are profound.

Lucem Ferre · 12-01-2018, 06:15 PM

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

**Janszoon** · 12-01-2018, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

Also, there’s no reason to think that life having meaning is a positive thing. What if the meaning of life is hardship and pain?

windsock · 12-01-2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

I don't think I'm going to be transported to a magical haven in the sky when I die, but that doesn't mean I condemn existence. I can hold meaning in my life in itself without recognizing there's some higher power waiting for me. The two aren't mutually exclusive. That being said I've never said that I'm not nihilistic, in fact I've espoused nihilist values in the past, most of which are due to my pessimistic personality. I guess if you want to label me as something cause everyone seems to love labels, you could call me an "optimistic nihilist" because I believe life has no objective higher meaning but I don't reject existence within itself and instead view the experience with optimism. I personally wouldn't call myself that cause it sounds dumb.

Quote:

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

Ehh, I don't know. That's find that reasoning shaky. If we're talking general societal belief and ideology, the idea that life has no meaning is pretty pessimistic. But like I've said what makes nihilists different from defeatists is what they do with their pessimistic belief. Holding pessimistic values and/or factoring those views into your nihilism doesn't make you a grinch, nor would I say it fundamentally does so. I think there's a kind of spectrum that comes to nihilism because nihilists vary on how pessimistically nihilist they are. This goes back to the IEP article, which states that a "true" nihilist would "would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy." Neither you nor I are full on nihilists but that doesn't make nihilism at it's core not pessimistic.

Quote:

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

I believe the term exists to distinguish from 'moral nihilism' which I'm fairly certain is a branch separate from existentialism. I agree though that existential nihilism as a term is generally redundant.

Lucem Ferre · 12-01-2018, 08:40 PM

The problem with calling it pessimism is that you're still assuming that a profound purpose in life out side of our personal opinions is a positive thing. Basing it on the fact that most people see it as positive doesn't really mean it is positive.

I'd say that IEP article also drastically misinterprets nihilism.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

The problem with calling it pessimism is that you're still assuming that a profound purpose in life out side of our personal opinions is a positive thing. Basing it on the fact that most people see it as positive doesn't really mean it is positive.

The fact that some people view the absence of meaning as a positive thing doesn't really mean it's positive either. See how we can both make that argument? The reason we can both state this is because, as I've stated previously, "meaning" is based in perspective.

I'll say again that nihilism is on a spectrum. Nihilists can still hold meaning in their life and not be that pessimistic, but it doesn't mean they're not identifying themselves under a philosophy that is rooted in pessimism.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

The fact that some people view the absence of meaning as a positive thing doesn't really mean it's positive either. See how we can both make that argument? The reason we can both state this is because, as I've stated previously, "meaning" is based in perspective.

I'll say again that nihilism is on a spectrum. Nihilists can still hold meaning in their life and not be that pessimistic, but it doesn't mean they're not identifying themselves under a philosophy that is rooted in pessimism.

Still sounds like that pessimism that the philosophy is allegedly is rooted in is on you.

Even if it is at as you depicted it, where did your convenient "language evolves over time" philosophy go?

windsock · 12-01-2018, 09:35 PM

Language does change over time. Nihilism has changed over time. This change, however, isn't linear- nihilism has grown many branches like most ideologies have. In the current era, there are some nihilists who hold their own existence with meaning. Similarly, there are the "pop nihilists" that I mentioned a few pages ago who are really just defeatists under what they perceive to be a trendy moniker.

These two sects are noticeably different but the extent to which they differ relates to how pessimistic they are. The "my life has personal meaning but existence overall does not" nihilists are less pessimistic than the "life is just straight up meaningless" nihilists, but they both still have pessimistic foundations. This is the nihilistic spectrum which I believe exists.

Listen dudes, I'm not trying to **** on you for your beliefs which I have stated already I mostly agree with, nor am I saying you're crotchety *******s for being nihilists. All I'm doing is identifying an element of the archetypal idea of the philosophy. No beef.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 09:48 PM

Then you don't really understand what nihilism is because it doesn't require a pessimistic worldview to reach the general ideas of the philosophy.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 09:53 PM

Please fill me in on how you define nihilism then, because many of the academic resources I've read into frame nihilism fairly closely to what I've been saying.

I fail to see how nihilism can exist without pessimism. To say that you're a nihilist without an ounce of pessimism makes me think you either don't understand nihilism or you don't understand philosophical pessimism. It's about as strange as saying you're an altruist who lacks any optimism.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

Please fill me in on how you define nihilism then, because many of the academic resources I've read into frame nihilism fairly closely to what I've been saying.

I fail to see how nihilism can exist without pessimism. To say that you're a nihilist without an ounce of pessimism makes me think you either don't understand nihilism or you don't understand philosophical pessimism. It's about as strange as saying you're an altruist who lacks any optimism.

Recognizing the universe for what it is (chaotic and simply present with no moral code) is neither positive nor negative. The philosophy may attract pessimists but that doesn't mean that those two philosophies are connected, which is what I was driving at with my earlier racist/conservative analogy. Conflating the two suggests a misunderstanding of one of the other afaic. Does that make sense, my embarrassed Republican?

12-01-2018, 09:48 PM	#78 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	Then you don't really understand what nihilism is because it doesn't require a pessimistic worldview to reach the general ideas of the philosophy. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x