Tristesse

I will smite all you unbelievers with the unimaginable power of Satan!

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Paul Smeenus

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GuD

I have a feeling this argument is not gonna go anywhere but whatever. You're doing your usual shindig where you just bury a very inaccurate point under a bunch of very vague and 'zen' language.

No, we don't need to experience something without the use of our nervous system to know it's a fact. Water will evaporate when heated to a certain temperature whether a person's nervous system is involved or not. We may have invented the language to describe the phenomena but it would occur even if human beings or any other living creatures never existed to witness and describe the event.

If people who blindly believed in things were harmless I wouldn't be bothered by their choosing to do so. But in many ways that's not the case, religion has caused more damage than it's repaired and a lot of what I've seen of it is corrosive to a person's understanding of reality and their ability to empathize with people who don't share their "beliefs". I hope our species will continue to evolve and that pack-like mentality dwindles into nothingness before something kills us all so one day we'll live in a world were people aren't afraid of anything they wouldn't find in a mirror. Of that too I have doubts.

__________________
I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

Mr. Charlie

Think of it as a discussion - not an argument, I ain't out to prove or disprove anything.

As for appearing vague and zen, I suspect you and I have different understandings regarding what zen is. It ain't some mystical condition, it ain't some loft wisdom, indeed it's closer to how a simpleton might operate; in short it's simply living in the moment and not subjecting it to mental conditions and abstractions. An exceedingly simple concept. But enough about zen, I might start sounding like I know what I'm talking about when I don't.

Religion has caused great damage, granted, but it also provides hope and solace. People use religion in different ways, saying it's good or saying it's bad is to see but half the picture. Those who take God into their hearts, in my experience, are tolerant souls full of humanity. The prophets I have read didn't promote hatred or bigotry or homophobia and any so-called religious person who uses God to promote hatred has missed the original message, has missed the essence of the teaching.

Furthermore, recent research suggests we are religious by nature, that part of our brain is wired for religious experiences, another study concluded that the religious live longer, happier lives than the non-religious. God, Dharma, Brahman, Tao, Nature, The Supreme Master, call it what you will, but it would seem there are genuine, real world benefits to believing in the divine.

GuD

That's a fair point on what positivity religion does provide but it's not like religion is all that provides that. And that hope and solace religion provides can be misleading. You can pray all you want but it won't make a difference if you've just been diagnosed with something like AIDS in some 3rd world country with ****ty or no health care.

Human beings are violent by nature too and correlation doesn't prove causation. Any study that explicitly says being religious results in a longer life shouldn't be taken seriously and is probably funded by a religious institution. Statistics like that should always be looked upon wearily.

__________________
I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

Mr. Charlie

If through prayer those in adverse situations find the resolve to live out the remaining weeks and months of their lives with a sense of peace, then it makes a difference.

My understanding of prayer is it's about inner transformation, not miracles. Regular prayer reshapes the brain the same way as regular meditation.

John Wilkes Booth

The problem with this kind of thinking is it basically leads nowhere. To say that since our perception might be imperfect, everything is equally subjective is to throw away the only tool we have at gauging reality. Maybe we can't obtain pure objectivity, but some things are closer to objective than others. Case in point:
If you had no confidence in our ability to approach objectivity then citing any study that says anything at all would be absolutely pointless. I could negate your study with a simple "I don't believe that" and neither of us would be any closer to the truth.

GuD

I can accept that. Having a secular preference is I guess close-minded and hypocritical.

__________________
I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

Mr. Charlie

I hear ya, but I'm not advocating throwing away the only tool we have. It might well be that some of our 'knowledge' is true, but we can never know if it's true. That doesn't mean all study and research is pointless, or that we should cease asking questions or seeking understanding. I guess what I'm trying to say is we should keep an open mind. We should believe in nothing while being prepared to believe in anything, if that makes sense.

WWWP

There's a lot of Cartesian nonsense being spewed here.

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