Your Day

Lucem Ferre · 06-22-2020, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

hurhur i saw them use the word strawman before somewhere so it must be a good insult.

Oh you're MAD mad about being owned.

Anteater · 06-22-2020, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Oh you're MAD mad about being owned.

I'm mad that Charles brought up Ben Shapiro's sister before I did. I completely blanked on it until he said something. She's hot.

Lucem Ferre · 06-22-2020, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

I'm mad that Charles brought up Ben Shapiro's sister before I did. I completely blanked on it until he said something. She's hot.

Seems like I'm still not wrong.

WWWP · 06-22-2020, 10:06 AM

me ITT

Anteater · 06-22-2020, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

way overthinking it

just don't try to reframe history in a way that neglects to mention our ancestors were genocidal super racists

nobody is asking you to apologize for anything but being a reactionary twat

My ancestors are known for haggis, murdering each other and the English over kilts and eventually inspiring the first Highlander film, one of humanity's crowning achievements.

~~jwb~~ · 06-22-2020, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

No, but pretty much I get the motivation

both Socialism in One State exps ran into the problem that's ironically already discussed in Marx

you won't be able to survive (ethically) in a world of capitalist countries

That sounds like a sort of justification to me.. basically you're saying their hand was forced. You're just making shallow excuses for regimes that haven't shown the slightest inclination to act "ethically" by supposing that if they weren't forced to compete globally they wouldn't have to resort to genocide.

OccultHawk · 06-22-2020, 01:07 PM

jwb

Do you believe that Mao intentionally manufactured a famine?

WWWP · 06-22-2020, 01:44 PM

I just got spam sent to my work email from address JesusLibRaverDad@[omitted].com

I've never wanted to follow a link more tbh

~~jwb~~ · 06-22-2020, 01:58 PM

@OH

I believe that he was inspired to do the great leap forward by Stalin's 5 year plan. And I believe that the 5 year plan intentionally allowed people to starve. It became apparent early on that the collectivization was a failure and that productivity of agriculture decreased, for a variety of reasons. When that became clear, Stalin continued to export food stocks instead of feeding the agrarian peasants who grew the food, thus causing the massive scale of of the famine. That's basically intentional mass murder via famine. Another collectivization effort happened in the USSR in the 1940s on a smaller scale, and once again it caused a (smaller scale) famine.

So yes, I believe that in part Mao had to have known that this sort of rapid industrialization would cost quite a few lives. I think it's possible he didn't realize it would grow to the exact scale it did in China's case, since some of that was due to really stupid and counter productive efforts to increase crop yields which ended up backfiring. But the lesson and example of the 5 year plan was more than enough warning of the hazards of such a policy that in general I don't allow him the excuse of ignorance.

It's also worth mentioning the reasons for the necessity of rapid industrialization were just as much based on internal politics and ideology as they were on military concerns. The blueprint for a workers utopia via Marx assumes that industrialization has already occurred under the stage of capitalism. And at least in the USSR there was a good deal of Bolshevik contempt for the agrarian peasant class as backwards, reactionary, religious and just not conducive to the party's vision of a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat. Probably not a coincidence then that they were the main ones to starve.

Anteater · 06-22-2020, 02:34 PM

His devotion to the Soviet Union's idiocy aside, Mao was exceedingly anti-intellectual and pissed on the expertise of anyone who knew anything about engineering or science or agriculture despite a desire to supposedly cultivate technical expertise and knowledge in the general population.

06-22-2020, 01:07 PM	#70747 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	jwb Do you believe that Mao intentionally manufactured a famine? __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

06-22-2020, 01:58 PM	#70749 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	@OH I believe that he was inspired to do the great leap forward by Stalin's 5 year plan. And I believe that the 5 year plan intentionally allowed people to starve. It became apparent early on that the collectivization was a failure and that productivity of agriculture decreased, for a variety of reasons. When that became clear, Stalin continued to export food stocks instead of feeding the agrarian peasants who grew the food, thus causing the massive scale of of the famine. That's basically intentional mass murder via famine. Another collectivization effort happened in the USSR in the 1940s on a smaller scale, and once again it caused a (smaller scale) famine. So yes, I believe that in part Mao had to have known that this sort of rapid industrialization would cost quite a few lives. I think it's possible he didn't realize it would grow to the exact scale it did in China's case, since some of that was due to really stupid and counter productive efforts to increase crop yields which ended up backfiring. But the lesson and example of the 5 year plan was more than enough warning of the hazards of such a policy that in general I don't allow him the excuse of ignorance. It's also worth mentioning the reasons for the necessity of rapid industrialization were just as much based on internal politics and ideology as they were on military concerns. The blueprint for a workers utopia via Marx assumes that industrialization has already occurred under the stage of capitalism. And at least in the USSR there was a good deal of Bolshevik contempt for the agrarian peasant class as backwards, reactionary, religious and just not conducive to the party's vision of a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat. Probably not a coincidence then that they were the main ones to starve.