I think falling back on "I'm old and wise and you're young and dumb" is about as pretentious and arrogant as anything Chula accuses Frownland of.

The plural of anecdote is data.

It's hard to get old and admit that a lot of people in their twenties and even their teens are already smarter than you. But once you come to terms with the fact that your potential has been exploited and you're still barely mediocre you can get back to doing important **** like getting high and taking naps.

Every day I want to fuck you more.

It makes complete sense. A man with a penis is a man. A female, or somebody who appears to be a female with breasts and everything, but has a penis rather than a vagina, that is a shemale or transgender person. A person that has both a penis and a vagina is a hermaphrodite. How is this concept hard for you to grasp? It is all logically sound and there.

So where does the logic come in for me to consider a person with a vagina and no penis or anything masculine to be a man? Because they believe they are? Because they want to be? Okay. Some people believe they are the reincarnation of the messiah and they want to be identified and treated as that. Will you do that? And somebody is probably going to say that I am being ignorant or insensitive for not seeing a difference, but can anybody tell me what the difference is? Or are people going to back down once logic HAS to be used. Convince me of why my perspective should be different and I will change it. Don't just sit there and attack me or my perspective because that's not going to educate or change me.

I'm not entirely convinced of at least certain transgender issues, mostly due to ignorance of transgender issues that makes me an "agnostic" rather than an opponent, but the human brain is so complex that reducing it to penis=man/vagina=woman is doing a disservice, not only to trans people, but to human consciousness in general. Why can't you just accept that this **** is so non-black and white that if you aren't educated on the matter that the best you can do is just say, "I don't know, therefore I have no particular opinion either way"? And in the meantime you might as well just err on the side of tolerance to cause the least amount of harm to the least amount of people. There is absolutely no harm to you if you do, and if this is all just bull**** then presumably logic and science will win out in the end anyway with no help from you.

Everything is on a spectrum. The world doesn't fit into neat little boxes however hard you try to put it there. In fact, accepting that everything is a continuum is actually the least-complex way of imagining our known world.

Sex =/= gender, Lucem. This is such a basic concept. Sex, itself is fairly complex.

Thought this was an interesting read:

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity

Yeah

Or maybe it is harmful to say 2+2=5

My dog isn't a cat.

I'm not here to argue or debate. Like I said, no-one is going to change anyone's mind so what's the point. I'm just putting my views out there and explaining where they stem from.

And Bat, I called him child in response to him calling me an old man as a way to discount my opinions.

I've never professed to being smarter than anyone. I am maybe a bit wiser than some just because of accummulated life experience.

This is basically my viewpoint, even if I don't concretely accept every aspect of transgenderism as it's presented (again, I'm agnostic and not opposed to any specific views due to ignorance and not opposition). Gay v. straight seems pretty clearly to be a false dichotomy to me as far as the general population is concerned, and I see no reason why gender should be any different. You'd have to prove to me that transgenderism isn't a real thing basically, otherwise I'd assume that it at least has some merit.

Don't be an idiot. You understand the basics of evolution and genetics.

Did you know that hyenas share more of their genetic code in common with domestic cats than domestic dogs? And humans have 90% homologous DNA with cats compared to 81% shared with dogs. Again, the world is not as simple as you would like it to be.

EDIT: In case the retort was not obvious, there are closer interspecies comparisons you could make that are less obvious-seeming than that which you made. If you believe in evolution, then you have to accept that life exists on a spectrum. The way we arrive at these end-branches (e.g., cats and dogs) is when the common ancestors of both die out, leaving these seemingly dead-ends.

^ That's one of my favorite animal facts. Hyenas are the best.

My dog isn't a cat. It's not on a spectrum.

I'm no longer going to talk to you.

Well I'm not trying to lynch these people are harass them. I just want to know why people are catering to something that I think is a delusion. How is that being a disservice? The human consciousnesses has tricked plenty of people into believing something that the collective consciousness knows to be untrue. Typically we label those people as being mentally ill. In the case of gender, though, we are getting this idea shoved down our throats by intolerant preachers of tolerance that we have to cater to these people's perceptions with no facts or evidence as to why I should, compared to how we treat others with different identity issues.

The fact of the matter is, I define somebodies gender based on their genitals. Because by definition a male is somebody who has a penis and testicles to me. Of course that gets mixed around when it comes to people transitioning genders or people with both genital sets, but there is a physical standard that defines each gender that they each will match. I don't think gender is defined by how you feel or how you act or what you choose to identify yourself as. It's all physical. And to go even further science tells us that your chromosomes define your gender. XX makes you a male and XY makes you a female. Sometimes you can get extra chromosomes too, which would make more sense to me as to why I'd call somebody who is physically a male a female, but I know damn well that none of this is based on that. I don't even consider chromosomes as the basis of it because somebody who transitions into a female still has the XX but I'd call them a female after they altered their gender.

What's really annoying is that I will get insulted and harassed for going against these 'tolerant' ideas. None of you are giving me any kind of logic or reasoning as to why I should change my perception. It's just, "man, just go with it, it's easier". But why can't I question it with out being told I'm ignorant? Why can't we discuss if gender identity comes from mental illness &/or the forced idea of how a gender should behave? Which, yeah, I know that gender identity causes are much much more diverse than just those two things. I don't know, man. I don't like the idea of having to change or fake my perception with no reasoning behind it. The fact that most people can do is tell me I'm just being ignorant or to just ****ing do it is bothersome. Or some fake ass **** because we all know DJ isn't calling anybody attack helicopter.

Then what is the difference between your gender and your sex?

And that quote, from what I understand, is saying that AFTER getting treatment their brains start to resemble their desired gender. Okay. Well I'm not arguing that somebody that transitions to a different gender is not that different gender. I'm arguing that somebody who has not transitioned is still identified by their physical gender.

I don't want to get too involved in this because there's a lot to unpack, but are you just saying that you don't accept that there's an in-between state? I mean, if you accept the fact that people do transition, if you accept the end-point of that transition, then it seems you would have to accept that during the act of transition, people exist between the states you've identified?

Yeah, I can acknowledge that. I call them shemales, or transgender. Or the gender they are transitioning to.

Edit: ****ing unpack, it's a Sunday I don't got anything better to do. Maybe you can help me understand better.

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That's all you have to say. You can write thousands of pages on the intricacies of math and a dude with a Ph.D. might say well sometimes 2+2=5 because numbers are a social construct but the six year old who says it's 4 is still right.

If you accept that then shouldn't you accept that gender is not black and white? That it is changeable? That it's perhaps something you should educate yourself on before making a judgement either way?

Physically they are not the same gender they once were.

Maybe we should consult an expert?

http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/5882/78/16x9/640.jpg

I'm not saying it's black and white, I'm saying that it's defined by your physical body.

Or like, there are people that don't identify as any gender. I was introduced to a girl that isn't transitioning, has no plans on transitioning, but she says she doesn't doesn't identify as either gender most of the time. Some days she feels like a girl, other days she identifies as a male, but for the most part she identifies as genderless. (By the way, despite the straight white cis male going off on me for asking questions about it she didn't mind and she told me I could use "she" rather than "they" if I prefer)

I no longer understand what we are discussing. Were you not denying that the transitional stage and resultant crossover existed?

No. I was just denying that a physical male is a female until they enter transitioning or transition.



Elph, do you even have any clue what you are talking about or do you just come in to run your mouth and pretend like you are more knowledgeable than you are? Because I'm asking ANYBODY that has any kind of facts or knowledge that contradicts what I believe to put them forth. You claimed you have them but have yet to put any forth, as usual.

The transitional process inherently has different stages within it, though, starting with the decision to transition, moving through behavioural and social changes, on toward physical changes. We're saying that the decisional, behavioural, and social changes count as part of that process and deserve to be respected for each individual undergoing it.

I haven't noticed anyone "attacking" you, Lucem. You also keep using the word "gender" instead of sex when talking about one's biological sex/reproductive organs. One's biological sex is comprised of multiple things (beyond one's external genitalia), things which you can't necessarily know by glancing at a person. And regarding your question.. That has already been answered multiple times. It is right there in the dictionary. Gender = the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits and characteristics commonly associated with one's sex.

And yes, like you said, there are people who consider themselves non-binary and don't particularly identify with one gender or the other. I'm biologically female, and I more or less identify with the female gender, but I know that a great deal of those traditionally-feminine/traditionally female traits (which vary depending on the culture you grow up in) I identify with are ingrained in me due to constant social conditioning that began in childhood.

:c Do you come across quite differently in person than you do on here? I feel it's just about impossible to mesh well with people (romantically or otherwise) in the long run if they don't have the same sense of humor/aren't on precisely the same strange wavelength. If they don't at least share the same sense of humor--unpleasant as it may be to others-- it likely isn't worth it anyway.

Yeah, that makes sense, but for me personally, it's all about what the physical body is. And, what if they never transition? Like that girl in the post above I gave as an example?

And like, that's the thing I find weird. Why do people change who they are or how they behave when they decide or realize they are a different gender? Isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes?

If they don't complete a transition, then we've arrived at this between-states thing we've been discussing, where it's easiest and most appropriate to call them what they want to be called.

As for the why of it... we're not there yet. The research is too new, but genetics and fetal hormones and brain structure are all involved. The debate about whether or not it reinforces stereotypes about femininity/masculinity is also a valid philosophical debate and a subject I can't really comment on.

Yeah pretty much I'm like I am online in real life if I'm comfortable with you/the environment I'm in. If we ever meet in real life then I imagine you'll get the full Batlord experience after a short period of me making sure I'm comfortable that you're the person you are online and that you're comfortable with the Batlord you experience here. At the very least at some point within a reasonable time period of interaction I would be the caustic douchebag that you see before you, bitch.

I'm being attacked by Elph, you know the guy who pretends he knows what he's talking about while you and Paedantic do all the leg work. Or Frownland says that people that don't follow this gender identity rule are harry ****s. But I guess they are going to talk **** regardless.

When did gender become defined by social behavior rather than your sex? Not denying it is, looked it up, but still. Because they are both synonyms. And isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes? That's what I don't get most. Like, we're conditioned to believe that a gender/sex is supposed to act a certain way, some people that feel as though they don't fit into that gender box but feel as though they fit into a different gender box start identifying as a different gender and even go as far as to mutilate their genitals just to fit a social construct that is forced on us. Of course that CAN'T be the only reason for people to transition, but they it constantly gets put on me seems that way. Shouldn't it be pushed that your sex shouldn't define your behavior rather than having people transition to fit our boxes?

I mean, like, if there is a harry man who wears dresses but never wants to transition, yet prefers to be called a female I don't feel comfortable with that.

Bro, I'M not attacking you. I'm just asking that you put aside your assumptions until you research the subject more. I don't feel the need to have any particular opinion which is why I don't, but if you do feel the need to publish an opinion then don't you think you should really immerse yourself before going off on a tangent? Otherwise doesn't it make sense to just say, "I don't know, so carry on"?

If I'm being honest, I don't think that description represents a vast majority of the already-tiny number of people who experience this phenomenon. If they're in your life long enough for it to impact you, you will probably find it is more complex than it first seems for them, and if you keep them in your life, you'll probably find a way to come to terms with it. I think that the issue you describe is probably not big enough to negate all the valid examples we've both discussed so far.

These are all worthy questions, but I think it's important to add that in many situations, it's not just the behaviour of their biological sex that trans people don't identify with, but their own bodies. The extent to which gender is tied to biology or social constructs is going to differ for every individual. Not being a trans person, I don't feel like I can weigh in on what it means to be transgender, but it's definitely an interesting topic of discussion.

I think a lot of the "negative" discussion about transgenderism is probably down to not knowing anybody you know is transgender. I've never known any out trans people, which is why I really don't have any opinion other than it's probably some kind of thing but I don't know what that thing is. If I knew any out trans people then it would probably be a more important issue to me, but they're kind of rare, at least in southeastern Virginia, so it's a pretty abstract issue to me.

I know you aren't attacking me. I guess I'm just over exaggerating but some of the responses have been.

This is a different case. This is an issue nobody really seems to know **** about. This is something I think we all deep down have an opinion about and I put forth my opinion. I felt as though I was just as educated as anybody else, to be honest. But nobody can assume they know everything about anything either. Plus, I'm completely open to people that can offer information that changes my perspective. How can I learn or gain a better perspective if I'm not starting a dialogue in the first place? It doesn't make any sense for me to just go with the program here. As opposed to keeping my mouth shut on a topic quantum physics when I don't know **** about quantum physics. Most of my tangent has been questions too. Like, I think this way, and you think that way so WHY do you think that way? It's how social and political conversations should go. With all our education there is always something that we probably didn't consider.

This is true of so many kinds of prejudice. We have ideas about groups of people that are invalid at the individual level--exposure to individuals helps us break down stereotypes and misunderstandings. Unfortunately, trans people are uncommon (although probably more common than we currently realize) and stigmatized, such that it's not safe for them to be open about it, meaning most people don't get to have those breakthrough experiences that lead to understanding and acceptance.